I was responding to Gonalin's post when I realized we could have a whole new thread.
As concerned as I am about the future of America's youth... I don't think it's up to game designers to alter their games just because children *might* be playing. It may be a noble thing to do, but in the end, it's the parents' responsibility to watch what their kids are doing. Of course, a lot of parents don't watch, so maybe it's kind to take possible young players into account, but I hate to see a game with great realism undermined because of it.
I'm designing Cerulea with adults in mind. I don't plan on having any sexually explicit material in the game, but that's just because I don't think it's necessary for the kind of "art" I'm creating. I think it'll be a fine game without it. But there will be innuendo, there will be brothels and prostitutes... but the description you see for those will be sufficient, not elaborate. I'm not putting that kind of stuff in the game for shock value, just for atmosphere.
Spuzzum can attest that some of my combat descriptions are pretty gross. I don't want anyone to puke all over their keyboard or anything; most of them are meant to invoke a kind of gleeful gallows humor. Not quite as bad as the graphical equivalent of body parts flying all over the place in some of the FPS games out there. Just gross enough to hopefully make people laugh.
No vulgar words are screened out, but if a player says one of the more offensive ones, any GMs in the game will see it. Then we can try to determine in which context it was said. I mean, I don't want to arrest someone for saying they fell on their ass... but there's certain other uses of that word I'd take action on.
I'll have to remember to put disclaimers up somewhere. Warning. This game rated R for violence, vulgarity, drug use and sexual innuendo. Some material may be inappropriate for children. Parental discretion is advised.
Z
ID:154636
 May 9 2000, 11:32 am
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I found this post using my Random post finding code, and even though it's two years old, I felt like responding to it. :oP
> As concerned as I am about the future of America's youth... I don't think it's up to game designers to alter their games just because children *might* be playing. It may be a noble thing to do, but in the end, it's the parents' responsibility to watch what their kids are doing. Of course, a lot of parents don't watch, so maybe it's kind to take possible young players into account, but I hate to see a game with great realism undermined because of it. Whether it's the parents responsibility or watch what their kids are doing, most of them don't, and a lot of them don't even care. If you think about it though, most adults aren't going to take the time to go play games like Cerulea to begin with. People around the 20's range on occasion, but the vast, vast majority of people who play games are under the age of 18. Most of the others have better things to do with their time. As a result, most of the people who find your game - even if it's designed for adults - are going to be kids, whether you like it or not. On top of that, since Cerulea is a text, parents would be less suspicious of what their kids are doing. If parents see thier kids playing games with machine guns blazing and body parts flying, they'll hopefully get a bit suspicious. If, on the otherhand, their kid is in front of a few screens of text, the casually glancing parent probably wouldn't care. Anyways, who cares about realism, people play games to escape from realism :o) How is having less-than-gory violence any less realistic than having people throwing fireballs and summoning dragons? > I'm designing Cerulea with adults in mind. I don't plan on having any sexually explicit material in the game, but that's just because I don't think it's necessary for the kind of "art" I'm creating. I think it'll be a fine game without it. But there will be innuendo, there will be brothels and prostitutes... but the description you see for those will be sufficient, not elaborate. I'm not putting that kind of stuff in the game for shock value, just for atmosphere. While it's better than having anything interactive, remember that people do have imaginations, and in sight is in mind. If the descriptions don't take them where they wont to go, they'll use imagination to finish it up... If that's of concern to you, anyway. (Been there, done that.) > Spuzzum can attest that some of my combat descriptions are pretty gross. I don't want anyone to puke all over their keyboard or anything; most of them are meant to invoke a kind of gleeful gallows humor. Not quite as bad as the graphical equivalent of body parts flying all over the place in some of the FPS games out there. Just gross enough to hopefully make people laugh. I can attest to it too, since I've seen the game. The descriptions are pretty gross, and I can imagine body parts flying well enough without the pictures, even if it isn't a thousand words worth. While I'm probably not the type of person you'd want playing anyway, I can tell you that I wouldn't play Cerulea again because of the descriptions. (Although, I'm still interested in your parser... :oD ) > No vulgar words are screened out, but if a player says one of the more offensive ones, any GMs in the game will see it. Then we can try to determine in which context it was said. I mean, I don't want to arrest someone for saying they fell on their ass... but there's certain other uses of that word I'd take action on. Personally, I think it's a huge atmosphere spoiler when someone in say a medieval fantasy works breaks out in modern english cuss words. Ideally, I'd let the player think they said them, report it to any online admins (and record it on the logs), but not let any of the other players year it. Players who talk like that would be out in no time, at least, in FoomerMUD. Perhaps to maintain atmosphere, you could provide people with some made up curses, just to give them something "cursing" to say without any players getting offended (just characters). > I'll have to remember to put disclaimers up somewhere. Warning. This game rated R for violence, vulgarity, drug use and sexual innuendo. Some material may be inappropriate for children. Parental discretion is advised. Disclaimers might keep a few people out, so it wouldn't hurt to add them, but they won't do anything to protect people who don't read them, or don't care. (Most kids don't care.) Okay, I said my stuff now, so I'm done :oP | |
Thanks Foomer! I am designing Cerulea with both the GS player base and BYOND folks in mind, and while I already know pretty much what my GS friends want in a MUD, I am not as well versed in those of my BYOND friends.
Z | |
on the last thing you sed, i dont have a credit card(im under age) but many of my friends do because there parents are stupid and trust or dont care about there kid. So the who credit card idea is a bust, what byond should do is make a age checking proc so its easyer to filter out people who are under age, wont stop people from coming in but will slow them down and probly stop some realy young people, like thoughs 10 year olds you talked about.
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Just my oppinion on the matter:
I feel that keeping children away from from violence and blood and gore is only hurting them. They will eventually have to deal with such things, so why let them go into the world ignorent and have to suffer for it? I am not saying that you should just let them do anything just to learn about it, but there are wars that go on overseas, and there are fights that happen right in the neighborhood. I am glad that I got aquainted with such things at an early age so that it did not disgust me. It should not disgust people. If I had an accident falling on my knife seriously wounding me and having blood and gore around I would rather have a kid nearby that would know what was going on because he saw Joe get hacked to pieces by a murderer in a rated R movie, than say have a kid nearby that was never allowed to see blood and such so they just panic and go hysterical or faint. It is not a bad thing for children to see blood and gore. What is the bad thing is when parents let there children watch shootings and killings on the TV and dont explain to their children what is happening, for then the children might get the idea that it is cool to shoot at cops or hold up a bank, or mutilate someones body. Let them see it, but use it as a good thing. | |
I only half agree with you, kids need to see blood but from a scraped knee or something, but your right that kids seeing things like a man killing a man because he was stoping him from doing something illigal is just wrong, but at the same time kids need to know there out there so it all falls back on the parents, unforcenitly(cant spell) most or at least some dont care or dont pay atintion. Ill level with you m only 15 but my mom did not mind 1 bit buying me fallout 2, and that game is chulked full of drugs, money, prostitutes, blood and gore, and mutants. But i think most parents would do the same and my mom knew it was not the best game for me to have because they carded her to let her buy the game(with my money). So todays soc. it is ok to show kids such thinks and not get in trouble but i think there should be stricter laws aginst it.
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Just to add my two cents worth...
It is a recent situation that parents do not want kidsto come into contact with anything vulgar or violence. It is a trend which our "civilised" society creates. However, the least we (our kids) come into contact with these things, the more desensitised with them. Thus creating more demons. Some violence should be permitted. But how much? Let the players decide. | |
Since you bring in the legal aspect:
Scoobert wrote: ...i think there should be stricter laws aginst it. I will quickly tell you what I think about that. I think it should be perfectly legal to watch a movie where some evil oppressor is has his head bashed in by the heroes axe, and brains spill out or whatever. There is nothing wrong with that, and some movies are rated R because of violence when it is not bad (people fighting for freedom, or something like that). I do not care how bloody or gory that is, it should not be rated R for the violence, and hence should be perfectly legal for anyone. In many video games where there is killing, blood and gore, no matter how much, should not get a bad rating if it is not bad. Sure, put a sentance on the box that says there is violence, but also put one that says it is not bad violence. The violence I think is in question in this thread though is the kind where a evil mummy comes out of his sarcophagas and rips someone apart with his hands and eats the persons insides to get a life back and be human again. Something like that is somewhat questionable... for a three or four year old. The way children should be brought up, they should be able to see that sort of thing by the time there age is double digits and not take it the wrong way. But "the way children should be brought up" is a whole nother argument allrogether. For those children who are not brought up correctly (some may think everything is a matter of oppinion when it comes to raising children, which, like I said is another topic, but I will just say that I think most of it is not oppinion, I think I might make a post about children, and todays society in general (not in the general forum, it would be in the babble part)) hopefully they have someone else close to them that can help them when it comes to these things, but if not then I could see a reason to keep that sort of violence from those people. I would ramble on longer, but in the beginning of this post I said "quickly tell you", and I have to go anyway. I might tack some more onto this thread later. | |
The problem with your idea about seeing a bad guy killed is still flawed because say when the kid gets old eough, he joins a gang, not his bad guy is another gang member. Or (not to say this has or will happen but just in case) a kids ideals are changed and he thinks Pres Bush is a bad guy, he might go off and kill him. See its to hard to dictate what is legal or not. Once agian the job falls into the parents hands, but once agian drug and such seprate parents into 2 or more colomns, good and bad, and make it hard to let the good ones parent and the bad ones be controled. Its just to much, head going to explode into many peaces and parts will fly all over all you.<--Good exsample of just silly but like. James took his gun and blew off Dr.Evils head and fragments on scole and brain flew though the air landing on any object nereby. James laughed and and fired his gun into the air in a way of saying "Horay". See thats real but James could be a East side gang member and Dr.Evil could have been a West side gang leader but a child does not tell the diffrents so he just thinks they can be anyone. A childs mind can not be read but i have a little bro and i know how he reacts to stuff and his mind works just like i sed, names are changeble but silly gore is ok because the child cant see its real, just like bugs bunny use to be but now cartoons are a little more realistic(like DBZ, as in they have human with real looking injurys minus the power balls and stuff) so kids get confused as to whats good and bad and whats right and wrong and whos team who is on. So its all up to the parents.
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Scoobert wrote:
...a kids ideals are changed and he thinks Pres Bush is a bad guy... President Bush, although not as bad as some, is a bad guy. Anyone with views warped enough to preside over the USA and think that the country is is a good one is a bad guy. The USA is an immoral, unjust, grotesque country. I am not saying it is the worst one. I look at all the countries around the globe and think how decayed todays society is. Like I stated earlier, I think I will start a devate about that in the babble whenever I find the time. | |
well, im an from USA and that kinda afends me.But i was speaking of a child from the US, but i mean any child from any country with any leader. But Americans are mostly nice, its people like New yorkers that give the rest of us a bad name.
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where is this game?? i wants to give it a try. | |
i dont thing there should be ANY laws about content. if the government says "YOU CANT SHOW YOUR KIDS THIS" then its a crime to the people. lets take real hardcore porno. it was illegle for my dad to show me porno at the age of 13 becase i asked what sex is and how it works to make babys. in my mind that was the best discription he could give. and instead of just putin in the tape and leavin he gave me a compleate sex ed course while it was on. told be about STDs, pregancy, protection, and crack whores. i learned alot and dident get STDs like the other boys in my naborhood becase i couldent control my hormons. if those other boys watched a prono with there dad they would still be alive or still in good health. | |
are you really stupid enof to think movies make bad people becase they watched them when they were too young? No. Thats not how it works. Movies dont make badguys, they give badguys ideas. thats it. you ever read 1984? you wish for 2084 to be like that? you want to start to give the government more control of what we see and think? you want to have stricter gun laws becase of gangs, then have the government be the only ones with any sort of weapons? you want the government to say "Ok, now we and selling 100,000 of you to china becase they need slave labor. and becase you are unarmed mindless cows you cant do a thing about it." you want to be numbered with a chip planted in your hand in order to buy/sell/trade anything and have the government be able to take the portion out of the bible about "no man will buy, sell, or trade without the mark of the devil" so noone will complain? you want to work twice has hard as your nabor but find out you both still get the same amount of ration credits added to your account in your hand chip? no no, you want people to be civilized and think "well these folk only have box cutters... but no.. i cant fight. i wasent raised to fight for what i beleive." and then crash into a building. you want folks to take drugs to fix the imbalences in there heads that set them apart from the other human cows. you want to classify and steriotype everyone. not by there color or race but way of thinking. | |
your blowing this way out of propotion, i dont want people to not know that this stuff exsists but i think that kids dont have to become men untell there old enough to be men(around 15-18 to me) but these kids seeing sex and vilance on TV see it as fun so at the age of 8 they have robed a bank and are nolonger vigens, but if you tell them that this stuff happens but that its bad and it couses people pain and suffering. Not tell them its kool or just like most TV shows do. Now its ok to give your kids the talk, or in some peoples case the sex ed stuff.But its not ok to tell a kid sex is ok if you give em a condom.
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well there you go, you in New York, a place known to be the worce place on earth when it comes crime and rudness and slums and what not.
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you know, its hard not to say Fu** off and die to you. you just dont get it. you think its one area? you think most peeps are nice? in your own naborhood, weather it be smalltown texas or bigcity newyork, the chearleaders are screwing the football players, the geeks are starting to toke up in order to fit in, the tokers are starting to learn computer theroy and find god, drugs more safer than beer is leading to deadly drugs becase they are both illeage, the church goers are thinking about how much better they are than everyone else. and as you get older: you learn about things like one night stands and casual sex. you take a shot of tequela out of a girls belly button. your life turns gray becase the "civilized" world leads to grayness and lack of imagination just to cope with life. you can get over the babysitters that took advantage of you at age 6. you continue the ring of abuse to your children becase you dad hit you. you are told hermit is no longer an aceptable ocupation(this one is the one i fall under). you girlfriend wont marry you becase she was raped a long time ago and fears sex, but no matter how much you tell her you want to be around HER for the rest of your life and you dont need her body she wont marry or move in with you(this one belongs to me also). you deside to kill yourself but can find a way to justify it(me). your love leaves you becase she wants to be a hermit(this is also belongs to me). you can no longer think for yourself becase you realize you dont exist(me). you cant say what you think becase you dont want to be put on meds again(me). you are told you HAVE to deal with life becase you cant afford to live off the land(dont ask me how.. but thats also me) you can no longer live so you just sit around all day liveing off the money the government sends you becase they think your too crazy to work(me) you have no choices about life. the persuit of libery hand happiness dose not apply to you.. all you have is life. YOUR SKIN BURNS BECASE YOU CANT SIT HERE ANY LONGER! you puke becase humans can no longer support themselves naturaly. you cant take it. you cant find the words for what your trying to get at. you cant do it. you cant FEEL it but its still there. its crawling around inside you. you cant get it out. no matter how hard you try. you cant seem to love anymore. you start to give up. you let your mind take over and lose all power of heart you once had. you think about stabing at yourself to see if you can get it out, but you know how crazy that is, so instead you think about stabing yourself so you dont have to live with it. you found the pointers to time travel in a quantum mechanics paper, but dont have the mony to buy a house sized particl exelorater. your only hope is to die young..... | |
Though I am still quite youthful in my own right, I somewhat disagree to what you said, and strongly support that people who play games should not be subjected to vulgarities, objectionable phrases, and outright violent or sadistic behavior. Sure, it might be funny to kill a young player's adventurer after they sit them down on their knees and beg for mercy, but I also believe that that does emotionally scar the poor little guy.
I do agree with you where you say realism must draw the line. If someone falls off the tallest mountain in Haven (I think the current elevation is 50 turfs) and falls to the ground below, they aren't simply going to make a dent. They'll make a dent, granted, but they'll also make a lot of blood, and a lot of gory chunks and bits. That can be toned down, but if you can simply get up and walk away after falling off a cliff, what good is it?
Also, the parent's should be watching. I mean, if they buy a game from the store that has guns and stuff on the box, and then give it to their kids without a second thought, why don't they blame themselves when the kids rob a store or shoot their best friend?
What with violence in the media and that, kids are becoming more and more desensitized to violence. I've seen it in myself. The games that I play on the computer disgust my mom beyond belief. My brother, on the other hand, laughs his head off (as do I). When I actually think hard about what actually happens, the game is disgusting to me too.
In our day and age, when all of the present day's games are finished, the early supporters will indeed be adults.
Well, they aren't all that gross if you've actually done studies on them. Like, I know which bone connects to which bone, which organ ties up to which organ, etc. But younger people (~12 years old), usually only learn one thing: some stuff should stay inside the body, and if it comes out, something very bad has happened. When someone rips out my heart in a game, I can imagine the pain involved. All the younger kids can do is get grossed out. Eventually, you get used to getting grossed out. But you can never stop pain. My point is, essentially, try to make players become their character, so they actually understand what happened to them, why, and let them come to terms with it. Otherwise it bothers them for a long time. Resident Evil is a good example of a game that actually puts you in the hotseat with stuff trying to kill you. Postal, on the other hand, puts you on the throne, with you trying to kill stuff instead of the other way around.
I agree. In my games, however, I do intend on actually censoring the words entirely. So if some disturbed teenager goes up to a kid playing a female character and says something disgusting, it comes out as mostly asterisks. The kid gets the general gist, but probably still doesn't know exactly what they said. And if they don't read it, it doesn't hurt as much. It was the same way with me not even 6 years ago, when I saw a bleeped out thing in a book. I knew what they said (I wasn't stupid, and nobody else is either), but I didn't feel like someone beat the crap out of me.
The problem with censoring words is that you actually have to type them out yourself to censor them. LinkOMatic, for example, includes a list of words that will be censored out of its pages that, to say the least, are about as explicit as they come.
That's the problem with language. Eventually, no matter what, there will be someone who doesn't do their civic duty and perverts and impurifies the younger crowds.
(Today a bus load of kids who couldn't be any older than 10 flipped me and the other teenagers off at the bus stop when I was waiting to go home from school and they drove by. It could be that they just demand attention, that they are in disfunctional families, or that they learned it from somewhere and take pleasure in so doing. Usually, its the last one.)
That's a very good suggestion. All of my games, at present, only have blood as suggested violence. But I also plan on adding features to remove extremities instead of just blood from the body.
So... now my idea flies... maybe someone here should create some sort of maturity rating system, or rip one off of the ESRB, or something. And then, you can rate your game using that system, and thus let parents know what their children are playing. Or let more mature players decide whether or not they want to play that sort of game.
(Too bad there aren't any valid methods of confirming identity (and thus, age,) over the internet. You could always give out credit card numbers, but then they have your credit card number. Eventually, there might be a solution... but not yet =P)