I still think its more realistic to have verbal indicators.
Eg, I broke a rib playing rugby, no one said, hes lost 3 hitpoints, but dont worry, someone his size should have atleast 12 so he can keep playing, atleat until he brakes anoth 2 ribs, then we better be careful.
If you have a cleary defined number for hp, it reduces the risk because you know exactly how much more damage you can sustain. This is especially true when you know that the Kobalds you are fighitng only do d4 damage so you dont even need to worry about the first few hits.
By using verbal indicators, you know that, when I fought the kobald, i was merely scratched. Meanwhile, fighting the orc left me bruised and bloodied. Also, I'm feeling winded now, so I better stall for as long as possible before fighting this approaching orc.
By using verbal indicators, you know that, when I fought the kobald, i was merely scratched. Meanwhile, fighting the orc left me bruised and bloodied. Also, I'm feeling winded now, so I better stall for as long as possible before fighting this approaching orc. This might go into that area of realism vs. fun. How much realism can you have before it stops being fun and just becomes a neusance. Maybe we should have some test runs of two versions of the same game, one with numbers and one with words, and let people decide which is better. After all, arguing about theories is pretty stupid. | |
Foomer wrote:
By using verbal indicators, you know that, when I fought the kobald, i was merely scratched. Meanwhile, fighting the orc left me bruised and bloodied. Also, I'm feeling winded now, so I better stall for as long as possible before fighting this approaching orc. I agree. Scientists shouldn't be stupid, arguing about theories and such, they should just solve everything with a popularity contest (which sadly I'm led to understand figures into the operatings of the scientific community all too much). If you want to attract as many predominantly adolescent players as possible, by all means, go with numbers--no one's disputing that. And steep exponential HP curves in general, too; if you've got 10 HP at level 1, you need at least a million at level 6. Giving specific numerical statistics lend themselves to powergaming. Suppose you kill two Demon Knights or whatnot and they each drop a sword, and you know that such items have randomized statistics. If you look at one and are told "This sword has a 87% chance to hit and an average damage of 23" and look at the other and are told "This sword has a 82% chance to hit and an average damage of 21", he knows right off the bat which is the better of the two and precisely by how much. On the other hand, suppose he looked at the one and was told "This sword is a very high quality sword" and looked at the other and was told "This sword is a very high quality sword." Now only through careful testing can he divine which is the better of the two, and if there's, say, a random wear-and-tear system, he might not ever know. You've also added a potentially vast new dimension to the game, because by reducing the amount of knowledge players are inherently entitled to, you've made knowledge a valuable commodity. Suppose there's a player somewhere who's rather mediocre in power but has a very fine eye for appraisal--suddenly he's got himself a niche, because perhaps he can tell the minute differences between the two swords whereas another player might merely be able to kill things with them. | |
Leftley wrote:
Foomer wrote: Exactly, knowledge in my game is very valuable. I have reduced numbers to as little as possible, nothing but Gold remains atm. Im afraid the immature players, or the ones with no sense of fun will just blurt it all out though. Alathon | |
I agree. Scientists shouldn't be stupid, arguing about theories and such, they should just solve everything with a popularity contest (which sadly I'm led to understand figures into the operatings of the scientific community all too much). Yeah, that's why evolution is so popular. Giving specific numerical statistics lend themselves to powergaming. Suppose you kill two Demon Knights or whatnot and they each drop a sword, and you know that such items have randomized statistics. If you look at one and are told "This sword has a 87% chance to hit and an average damage of 23"...yadda yadda You're getting off the original point, which was that I like seeing hit points, and how much damage I take. I never said anything about weapon stats, or any other stats for that matter. If you want me to expand on this, I will. Mostly that opinion centers around games where when you die, you lose something that you've worked hard for, be it nifty items, experience, or your character... Now, were that the case, I would be rather frustrated to get attacked by some moster that and the combat went much like this: <FONT COLOR=silver>The dark beast slashes at you and shreds your leather armor. Foomer: "Yeow!" You takes a swing at the dark beast, but your attack bounces off the creature's thick armor. The dark beast mauls you with with a powerful claw. The dark beast swipes at you with its claws. You attempt to evade, but fail. You are dead.</FONT> I'd much rather see (starting with 100 hp): <FONT COLOR=silver>The dark beast slashes at you and shreds your leather armor (42 damage!). Foomer: "Yeow!" You takes a swing at the dark beast, but your attack bounces off the creature's thick armor. The dark beast mauls you with with a powerful claw (36 damage!). You run away screaming in terror.</FONT> In the latter example, I just died without knowing that I was getting hurt a lot, because there was nothing to tell me that those were lethal blows other than the description, which for all I know could have been doing considerably less damage if I happened to be a hearty soldier or something. However on the latter example, I could clearly see that this was a fight I was gonna lose if I persisted, so I fled, and lived to tell about it. Now, on the other hand, if the game were more of a roleplaying game where at your death it wasn't so much about losing items or experience or anything, but it could make an interesting part of the storyline and I'd just start a new character and continue on in a new life, then that would be different. It wouldn't matter so much that I couldn't tell when I was about to die, because death does not have the frustrating results that non-roleplaying/powergaming games have. | |
Foomer wrote:
I agree. Scientists shouldn't be stupid, arguing about theories and such, they should just solve everything with a popularity contest (which sadly I'm led to understand figures into the operatings of the scientific community all too much). So the fact that something claws at you, slashes up your armor in 1 hit, and mauls you, isnt descriptive enough for you to see that your loosing? Well...In that case, dont come to my game. hehe. Damage is in words, stats are in words, hp is a bar, as is spirit/mana, everything but gold so far is in words. And if this doesnt describe a loosing situation: The DarkenBeast pierces you with DiViNe PoWeR or the Sapphire Dragon claws at you, nearly tearing your body in half then..well...I cant see how it doesnt.. Alathon | |
So the fact that something claws at you, slashes up your armor in 1 hit, and mauls you, isnt descriptive enough for you to see that your loosing? Well...In that case, dont come to my game. hehe. Damage is in words, stats are in words, hp is a bar, as is spirit/mana, everything but gold so far is in words. And if this doesnt describe a loosing situation: Still, it's hard to tell if you're really loosing when it "looks" like you're taking a lot of damage, as opposed to the game just being overly descriptive... But the bottom line for me is that making health into words is just an extra pain for the brain to try and figure out. | |
<FONT COLOR=silver>The dark beast slashes at you and shreds your leather armor. In the latter example, I just died without knowing that I was getting hurt a lot, because there was nothing to tell me that those were lethal blows other than the description, which for all I know could have been doing considerably less damage if I happened to be a hearty soldier or something. However on the latter example, I could clearly see that this was a fight I was gonna lose if I persisted, so I fled, and lived to tell about it. You said "latter" twice. I'm assuming you mean "former" the first time, since that would make sense. =) Anyway, you're forgetting one crucial point. The game is only as informative as the designer makes it. Compare: <FONT COLOR=silver>The dark beast slashes at you and shreds your leather armor. Foomer: "Yeow!" You take a swing at the dark beast, but your attack bounces off the creature's thick armor. The dark beast mauls you with with a powerful claw. The dark beast swipes at you with its claws. You attempt to evade, but fail. You are dead.</FONT> versus: <FONT COLOR=silver>The dark beast slashes at you and shreds your leather armor. You receive a massive gaping wound on your chest. You stagger, heavily injured. Foomer: "Yeow!" You take a swing at the dark beast, but your attack bounces off the creature's thick armor! The dark beast mauls you with with a powerful claw. The impact tears open a massive hole on your abdomen. You are feeling extremely cold and weak from blood loss. Foomer screams.</FONT> //Foomer runs off. | |
Still, it's hard to tell if you're really loosing when it "looks" like you're taking a lot of damage, as opposed to the game just being overly descriptive... But the bottom line for me is that making health into words is just an extra pain for the brain to try and figure out. Who says that players ought to be able to figure out every aspect of the game? | |
Who says that players ought to be able to figure out every aspect of the game? I'm not talking about EVERY aspect of the game I'm talking about HEALTH. | |
Foomer wrote:
Who says that players ought to be able to figure out every aspect of the game? I personally think that having HP as a number greatly reduces risk, increases predictability, and powergaming. Those are all things which I atleast wouldnt like in my game (Risk is alwease good, do you really have enough to beat that Orcish Guard all by yourself? If this were numbers, youd know that it deals 50 points of damage, you have 500 health, so you can stand 8 hits before a heal is needed, and you need to watch out. If it werent, again theres less predictability, more risk, more fun in the end because everything isnt so predictable and repeatetive) This is just my opinion anyways. I have no numbers the player can see, cept for their gold, everything else is translated into words by a proc (ahh the beauty) Alathon, | |
Foomer wrote:
Who says that players ought to be able to figure out every aspect of the game? Unless you're trying to create a typical RPG with a continuous power-building race, I don't see why knowing exact health and damage numbers is particularly important. The less you know, the more you have to fudge your estimates, and the more you're guessing, the riskier it is. There is a realism vs. fun factor here, but who says only combat is fun? | |
Foomer, I have to say, I find your stance on this issue perplexing. From what I know... you oppose powergaming, you approve of roleplaying. Numbers serve no one but powergamers.
Yes, it would be nice if you'd always know when you're about to be killed so you can prevent it. While we're on the subject, it would be nice if you could set it so that you'll automatically run away right before being killed. Oh, but you know what would be nicer? If you could set it so that a forcefield always pops up right before you're killed, intercepting the killing blow. Or what if we made it so that other people's attacks had no chance at all to hit you? Fact #1: No one goes into a battle (or stays in one) if they know they're going to die. Fact #2: Following a successful hit, your adversary is not going to step back and let you calmly and coolly assess your wounds and calculate your new chance of success based on this. Fact #3: If you don't want to die in battle, period, the way to do this is the same in a game as it is in real life: don't get involved in a battle. If you're all for roleplaying (or surviving in a text-favoring game), your approach to a new monster should be this: observe it from a safe distance, determine if it's hostile, do research (finding texts inside the game, or asking others) to determine its capabilities, and proceed accordingly. Yes, battles will be rarer with this approach... but haven't you posted here before saying that games shouldn't be all combat? | |
It's mostly the frustration of dying that I dislike. I'm only saying that I like knowing how much health I have because it makes it less likely that I'll without expecting it.
I'm not against hiding skill numbers, trait numbers, or anyone elses health, even damage if it fits. I believe roleplaying is about how players play, not about knowing your stats. | |
I personally think that having HP as a number greatly reduces risk, increases predictability, and powergaming. Those are all things which I atleast wouldnt like in my game (Risk is alwease good, do you really have enough to beat that Orcish Guard all by yourself? If this were numbers, youd know that it deals 50 points of damage, you have 500 health, so you can stand 8 hits before a heal is needed, and you need to watch out. If it werent, again theres less predictability, more risk, more fun in the end because everything isnt so predictable and repeatetive) The simple solution would be to make your game more random than that...But random or not, I still like knowing how much health I have, not necessarily how much damage I do or take then, just how much health I have. Okay, since everyone seems to be blind to what I'm trying to say, I'm going to quit trying now. | |
I'm not against hiding skill numbers, trait numbers, or anyone elses health, even damage if it fits. I believe roleplaying is about how players play, not about knowing your stats. And you're saying that knowing your exact stats vs. knowing general stats does not affect the manner in which you play? | |
I understand what you're saying: you like knowing how much HP you have so you're never surprised when you die. What you seem to fail to understand, though, is the following:
1) HP is just another way of conveying the same information as the text messages we're describing. If you know you have 10 HP out of 200 and you know that attacks in this game average 7-15 damage, then you know the same thing as if you were told "You're seriously hurt... you can't handle more than one or two more hits!" 2) Death SHOULD surprise you. If death were predictable, no one would die. | |
2) Death SHOULD surprise you. If death were predictable, no one would die. Except stupid people. The thing with the wording Foomer, is you wouldnt just go from Good Health to Nearly Dead to Dead. In my old (but unreleased) game, there were 10 health states you could be in. They pretty much went like this: Above 80% health, Healthy 80 to 70%, Bruised 70 to 60%, Bruised & Bloody 60 to 50% ... etc etc. So it wouldnt take you long to work out what order the states went in anyways, so you would always know roughly how much health you had anyway, or atleast, what percentage of health you had left. This makes taking on new creatres you havnt fought before so much more interesting, especially in a party. Eg/ You and a friend are attacked by a bugbear, you are a far more experienced adventurer than your friend, who, without thinking charges toward the bugbear. As the scuffle unfolds you friend is struck by a powerful blow. He is unconcious, but is still breathing. You know you are stronger than your friend, but you know the bugbear is too. You now have to make the decision, do you fight the bugbear to save your friend (who will otherwise surely die), or so you play is safe and run away. Because you dont know the exact amount of damage the bugbear inflicted, or how strong your friend was, you never know for sure what the outcome will be. This create a sence of risk, and in a lot of ways, thats what makes games exciting. Also, if I remember correctly, 0 hp didn't always mean death in AD&D. Likewise, in my system, if you are reduced below 0 hp thre is a chance you are incapacitated rather than killed. This way it opens up new roleplaying oppotunitys as your fellow players decide if or not they will go search for you if you dont return. Little things like that add so much more to the game, well in my opinion anyways. | |
Botman wrote:
2) Death SHOULD surprise you. If death were predictable, no one would die. Yeah, I have a few levels of incapacitation in my game (the last killing you) first one disables movement, but not speaking(to a limited degree, you cant shout), second one disables sight, and reduces your options to say, third one disables eveything, your still alive but will start bleeding to death, fourth one kills you. Etc Alathon | |
Well that's what help files are for.