The thought of someone hacking the savefile to get admin status hadn't even crossed my mind. I've been building a basic admin library for myself (I may release it, depends how it turns out) and I check for admin status that very way, I'll have to look into putting in more safeguards and crosschecking.
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Spuzzum wrote:
I don't receive any porn or spam Hmm...as a joke I used to sign people up for such things.. maybe Spuzzum needs to 'experience the real world' ??? | |
Maybe Spuzzum needs to 'experience the real world' ??? Maybe you should shut up. ;-) In any case, I'm one who checks IP addresses when a mailing-list service (pun not intended) provides them. And, based from that information, if I have reason to believe someone sent me something I don't want, they too get removed (permanently) from all chances of corresponding with me. I don't discriminate. =) | |
For sake of continuing my argument, the only chance they'll have of getting admin status is if they actually get the world hosting files. In short, the only person that'll get admin status is the host, and they should be getting admin status anyway.
When you join a server, there's no guarantees that it's a legitimate server. This is true of any game, so why go to extra lengths? | |
Well if your after a good article, you could try writing up something on dmb/sav hacks. Using the same tools you use to make a translation patch for rom you can edit all sorts of things.
Id like to see some sort of password protection system (Like what the new HUB ID will have) so that you can only read/write the savefile if a const var (world.savcode) is equal ot the right number. Ive got a couple of ways that I could work around this forming in my head, but still it would make save hacks harder to program. -DogMan | |
The way I have it set up, admins and moderators are loaded from a list in a savefile, then checked as they log in. If they put their name in one of those lists, then they will be an admin/mod in the server that uses those savefiles whether they have the world hosting files or not.
I've decided against having multiple possible chief administrators (the only one that can add/remove admins and mods) so the risks are much less but they could still go on a banning spree or mess with the game world in other annoying ways. Your probably right that it isn't that big of a concern because it would be a lot of trouble (first picking a server, then hacking into the computer, then finding the savefile, then modifying it, then waiting till the next hosting because that's when the savefile is loaded, and then cause some annoyance, be removed, and maybe do it all over again) for a little fun, but I figure why risk it when it can be avoided without too much hastle. | |
But for the umpteenth time, the only way you can hack a DMB or SAV is if you get your hands on it. And a host server can hack their game if they like: it's the players' fault for joining a non-trustworthy server. There's still plenty of security measures in Dream Seeker that prevent the server from doing anything hostile to the client, and the only way to circumvent THOSE is via a trojan exclusively designed to modify the client's Dream Seeker. How many people are going to manage to install trojans on the computers of their clients, let alone program the trojans to do so? In short, there's really nothing to be concerned about.
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Spuzzum, think about what your saying, search your computer for *.dmb and *.sav. You have access to heaps of dmb and sav files. Lets use DBTC as an example. You can hack a savefile and get GM Powers in a matter of seconds if you know what your doing.
This doesnt seem like a problem since its only on your server, BUT what happens when you log onto someone elses server? You dont have GM powers but you still have a suped up character. Its not that much of a concern, since you do realise which hosts and players you can/cant trust, but its still an annoying occurance. -DogMan Edit: Just wanted to add that I played ShapeShifter for the first time and its a really good game. If I had some dimes Id subscribe ;) | |
Maybe you could thing that would auto-delete a savefile that goes beyond any sane limits? Or add secondary vars that are SUPPOSED to be the same as the primary one they 'protect', and give the secondary vars a name that would seem like something they're not after. And have it check them when they login, if their primary/secondary vars are not equal, have it delete them.
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I think Foomer suggested this once: You have a var that is the sum of all of the other vars. It doesn't have to be all vars, but the commonly edited ones. Then when you load a savefile it checks if the sub of the stats it loaded is equal to the sum var. If they aren't equal, then you delete them.
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Or even better, if they are not equal on a 4th root level, with a few numbers based on world.realtime when the savefile was made thrown in.
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Dog Man wrote:
Spuzzum, think about what your saying, search your computer for *.dmb and *.sav. You have access to heaps of dmb and sav files. Lets use DBTC as an example. You can hack a savefile and get GM Powers in a matter of seconds if you know what your doing. DBTC lets you upload characters to the server? That's actually what's replaced the DoPlayerCheat() in the latest version of DM. It doesn't matter how you encrypt or protect the file... storing saves clientside and allowing them to be uploaded to other servers is making one of three statements: 1) I really, really trust my players. 2) Character data is inconsequential. 3) I fully expect (endorse!) player cheatin. Even if it's set up to notice stat editing, there's still a million different ways to cheat if you control your own savefile. Example: backing up your character at the prime of health/power, selling multiple copies of your character, etc. Bottom line: Like Spuzzum says, joining a disreputable server is your mistake. For games that work like you say DBTC works... it becomes the game designer's mistake. | |
I now see where you're misinterpretting things. Only the server runs the DMB. If a client has a modified DMB, it doesn't matter one way or the other, since the server's DMB is the one that gets run. Players can hack their DMBs all they want and it wouldn't affect how the server played.
Hacking Dream Seeker itself to gain more information from the server is a (shallow) risk, however. But, it'd take a fairly promiscuous client to gather a lot of information from the server, and protection against that could be integrated into Dream Daemon itself (if it isn't already). The most that someone could hope to hack on their end of Dream Seeker is a way to see through walls. Currently, most of BYOND is server-side. Not much can be hacked on the client's end to give them an unfair advantage. It basically raises the question, "Why bother?", if all they can do is see through walls. In games like Lode Wars which relies heavily on making certain things visible, sure, that'd give you an advantage. But even then you're still getting comparatively little gain (a promotion in the game and 20000 non-existent units of currency? Give me a break!) for such a capital effort. | |
You cant edit your own character, however you can edit the save file with the admin list in it. SSGX could save that too the same place as the character files, and it would solve the problem.
It was mainly just a mistake caused by him not being able to create his own GM system, but still needing one. Im pretty sure DBTC was his first project, its one of those things you dont really think about when your fresh to the BYOND world. Like Spuzzum says, joining a disreputable server is your mistake, but its a pretty common one. If you dont know who SSJ349DoogMoon666* is you dont know to avoid him. -DogMan *Sorry SSJ349DoogMoon666, Im sure your a good person. | |
I know only the server runs the DMB, but there is still the possibility of the server DMB being modified by the servers host.
You can log out simply enough if the host is fooling with the files, but its not nice to see your game given a reputation of being extremely lame because of some jerk who wants to get to level 99 and kill everyone who enters the server and insult them. DMB hacking isnt a common issue, or even a very important one, but its still a issue. -DogMan | |
Also, you can do some tricks to get in there way.
-Like not saving vars under any specific names. For example, the HP variable is saved as 001. That doesnt make it an impossible system to crack, but its an inconvenience when Joe Cheater is trying to make himself Uber-1337. -Mixing variable names. Save your HP in your str slot. -The tricky variables depend on the first letter of your key name technique. If your key begins with A, your variable is modified by * 10. Whats that your saying? This wouldnt even fool Joe Cheater? Well it wont. Instead it will mean that Joe Cheater's cronies are in for a surprize when they go to use J_Cheat to edit there stats, since it wont work. Thats when Joe gets confused, and his reputation as having the madest skillz goes down the drain. The same also works with variable slot names. You can also get really tricky, and make it so that every letter in your name is equal to a number, and when that number is added up you get your modifier. -Splitting variables. When the savefile is created, a number is generated (Using a method based on Key name length, or first letter or something). Now for every variable you have, create two slots for it. Take numbergenerated% off the actaul value, and then put it in slot A, and put the remainder in slot B. When the variables are loaded, if slot A isnt numbergenerated% of Slot A + Slot B, it deletes the save file. Now if you dont use obvious names, and mix up the order the variables are placed into the savefile, then you should be giving Joe Cheater a rough time. -Using variables in other files to decide validators and modifiers. For example if you use a list to keep track of all the players who have joined, you can use the position of the players name to decide on a modifier. -DogMan Note: Yes, Joe Cheater is Chester Cheaters cousin. | |
It seems like a lot of work just to stop a few savefile hackers. Simple things like changing var names or adding in "dummy" vars should confuse most people. When they load a character, if they hacked the savefile, you could have it send a message to everyone in the game saying "Joe Cheater is not a U83R 1337 H4X0r, he couldn't hack my savefiles *point and laugh at Joe Cheater* Tell the owner of this game that Joe Cheater sucks at life so that he/she can get his email address and sign him up for dozens of disgusting email subscriptions". You would probably need a way of validating that Joe Cheater did indeed hack the savefiles, so in that message you could include a code number, which is an number based on the letters in Joe Cheater's key.
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This doesnt seem like a problem since its only on your You cant edit your own character, however you can edit Connect the dots for me here... everything you are saying adds up to make the kind of sense that isn't. If I didn't know better, I'd have a deep and abiding suspicion that you don't know what you're talking about. | |
By not having any porn or spam, it kinda makes it moot. Anyone who contacts me is either doing so legitimately or has sent a virus (intentionally or unintentionally).
(I've had about three intentional viruses sent to me. I contacted their ISPs with a complete run-down of the information (including proof that the viruses had to be intentional, as they used specific subject lines), but they never contacted me back. I really wish people would get off their butts. =P)