Mar 6 2007, 11:38 am
In response to Pakbaum
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Cavern
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Live. Definitley live.
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Kaioken wrote:
You don't seem to get the point here. Some people prefer different abilities, for instance, not everybody likes the same thing as you. The uber builds stuff is lame. No, I understand quite clearly, thanks. Im simply telling you to quit being a scrub. You're one of those people who complain when they lose at games because someone had "better gear" or some other whatever. | |
PROTIP: Power gamers dominate the gaming industry. If you want players, you're going to want to appeal to them.
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Actually, it's called BYOND because it's what I want. I -want- to appeal to a certain field of gamers, and frankly, as long as it's fun for a few people, or even just my friends and I, I consider that a good use of time. I'm sure there will be some people here that play it anyways, and if not, then that's fine, I accomplished what I wanted to.
Thanks for the feedback. | |
True, but I was trying to sound manly and like I was telling the bad guy something before I killed him, like in movies haha.
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Honestly though, I do see your point. I'm just saying that I'm trying to appeal to a certain group. If my game flops, that's ok.
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Jermman wrote:
Actually, it's called BYOND because thats the name !!!!!! WTF. are you serious? Damn...for real?! BTW; no, thats not how you explain why stuff is the way it is. But they already teach that in kindergarten, so I shouldn't. and it's been around longer than you, sir. And how does that have to do with anything, sir? Also, BTW, nice of you to decide how I behave in games when you've never seen me before, surely not in a game. Also, I have this special thing - you see, if I don't like a game, I simply don't play it; super, huh? ;) | |
Jermman wrote:
PROTIP: Power gamers dominate the gaming industry. If you want players, you're going to want to appeal to them. PROTIP: [profanity]. Read some Raph Koster, Richard Bartle or hell, read any game design analysis. The answer is far more complex and diverse than that, and its certainly not at all correct. | |
Alathon wrote:
Jermman wrote: Yeah, from what I can tell most corps are going for the casual gamer. Powergamers actually are considered somewhat of a necessary liability because they, a) burn through all that hand crafted content way faster than your team can make it, b) are on more often and use much more bandwidth per dollar payed than most other users, c) they have a tendency to be more jaded about MMOs and therefore require more features than your average joe, d) tend to move on quickly to the 'next big thing' with little or no 'brand loyalty' or 'community loyalty'. They help, tho, in that they spread the word and generate buzz about a product before release and they tend to move in packs. Or so the pundits would have you believe, anyway. *shrug* If you do go with 'live' combat style, Pak, put extra effort in your ui as it will be an order of magnitude more important that it's easy and quick inside that model of combat than if it was in turn-based, I'm thinkin. | |
Pakbaum wrote:
-Some of the game's fast paced ability may be lost, since only one player will be acting at a time Every play a game with an ATB system? My team's game is a Final Fantasy game with one such system. -Exophus | |
Alathon wrote:
Jermman wrote: Next time a powergamer runs in, kills everything you were fighting, and proceeds to glitch abuse to 1 hit kill you. Think of me. | |
This is an example of how powergamers have the tendency to ruin the game. I think that "powergamer repellent" can be a valuable tool for any game. However, I would argue that "real-time" versus turn-based combat does not make all the difference for power players. I can tell you from experience that Magic: The Gathering, an eminently turn-based game, draws attention from powergamers worldwide. So, to Pakubaam, do whatever with combat you like -- just make it *interesting* and not straightforward.
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Jermman wrote:
Next time a powergamer runs in, kills everything you were fighting, and proceeds to glitch abuse to 1 hit kill you. A bit of background history on me: I've been part of upwards of 3 of the worlds best EverQuest guilds; In World of Warcraft, I was part of similarly placed guilds. In text MUDs before I took to EQ, I was one of the highest standing player on a PK-Only MUD called War of the Kingdoms, which was very popular within the GodWars MUD era. You see, I figure you'd think of me as a casual gamer just because I have the brains to realize that, guess what: players like me don't run games. I have far too much spent/wasted time on games, and I play competetively at an intense level whenever I do play games. That doesn't make me more important to the game, just because I may be able to access certain parts of the game that others (due to time constraints or lack of will) are not. It just makes me someone who plays the game more, uses more bandwidth, whines more about issues, et cetera. Even back in EverQuest, before the 'age of casuals' (as per WoW domina, cirka), hardcore players only made up about 2% of the population. See WoW, DAOC, AO and/or EQ statistics for more information on that. The reason I told you to read some of that wasn't to flaunt an opinion of casual gaming upon you. Powergamers do control an avenue of games, since they are the idols of a community. This means that opinions they have matter more, because they can sway others opinions easier through online forums. This does NOT mean that a game should 'cater' to powergamers. Oftentimes, the game powergamers want to play sucks. I hate the fact that there is no death penalty in WoW; I hate the fact that there are in-game maps, and that levelling doesn't take months longer. I hate the fact that raid zones aren't keyed up better. Why? Because I thrive on challenges, and I have an easy time being good at MMORPGs - So naturally, I want more challenge. I'll often speak up for points supporting the fact that powergamers need to exist - And they do. But stating that you need to cater to powergamers is just, forgive me for saying so, uninformed [profanity]. A game developer should always consider the goals of the game, and should always be aware of what his playerbase thinks about a given 'issue' or part of the game. Communication is key. It is oftentimes important to gather information from all of the different avenues of play that your game involves, such that you realize the consequences of adding/removing/fixing/nerfing/buffing something for all of those playstyles. | |
o.o.....daaaaaaaaaaamn.
What do you suggest then Alathon? As for Challenges, anything you've wanted to see in a ORPG? | |
Pakbaum wrote:
o.o.....daaaaaaaaaaamn. Keep in touch with your playerbase - Provide the playerbase with ways to touch on balance issues, in a medium that is constructive to you. Keep an eye on players who have a high amount of knowledge about your game (mostly powergamers), but keep in mind that while their knowledge may be great their suggestions on fixing things are almost always biased or incorrect, given that many players fail to see 'the big picture'. Reasses your game and how things are working often - Once a week, once a month or whatever fits for you, run through things that players see as an issue and figure out if they really are issues or just something the players think are issues. Oftentimes, players will complain that something is broken when it is in reality 'working as intended'. As for challenges, thats entirely dependant on the game; Thats a bit too wide of a question to properly answer. My only suggestion here is to always think about what works best according to what you're trying to achieve. If you want a game that is fun, make sure the different aspects of the game are fun. If an aspect isn't fun, figure out why - If its something you can obviously fix, then do so. However, there are many cases where doing so is simply not a plausible solution. | |
Alathon wrote:
A bit of background history on me: Similarly, I'd like to give some credit to my online presence. My first experience was an online text MUD (rom2.4b6) "The Mind's Eye", which I eventually came to be the top player, PVE, PVP, and wealth. I used to be too young to really spend money on online games, so for a while I skated around various free games. I played Tibia, where on the Chimera server I was the only character below level 35 to ever regularly kill players above level 60 (even one 115). I played numerous Ragnarok and Tibia private servers, and all of them were extremely easily to dominate in because of the playerbases. Now I play World of Warcraft, where I never have a BG in which I don't perform well, regardless of class or level-in-bracket. Overall, I find MMOs extremely easy, and I very much enjoy pwning the noobs in PVP (it's basically all I really do). Oftentimes, the game powergamers want to play sucks. I hate the fact that there is no death penalty in WoW; I hate the fact that there are in-game maps, and that levelling doesn't take months longer. I hate the fact that raid zones aren't keyed up better. Why? Because I thrive on challenges, and I have an easy time being good at MMORPGs - So naturally, I want more challenge. No death penalty is a bit ridiculous. In-game maps, I could care less. If anyone wants a map and they know how to google, they'll get one. Putting it in the game has very little effect aside from helping casual gamers who don't realize there are resources to get this information, because everyone else who wants the information will get it anyways. Leveling doesn't take months longer? Leveling is boring and mundane in WoW. The quests are literally the same six styles of quests over and over with different skins on the content. Grinding isn't challenging nor fun after a certain extent. It completely boggles my mind why ANYONE would want that content to last LONGER than it already does. EverQuest was five-hundred times worse, too, and from the sounds of it, the action was even slower. I just can't comprehend how ANYONE, ANYWHERE gets any enjoyment out of mindless grinding/questing. If the content was dynamic and interesting (Fable-esque? Tibia sucks, but has a great quest system, just not enough content. etc.) then I wouldn't have a problem with ages of leveling, cause hey, it'd be fun. I'm just tired of games with PVP as end-game material where you have to wade through uninventive mindless grinding before you can do it. And don't tell me to go play a shooter. I'll shoot you. I'll often speak up for points supporting the fact that powergamers need to exist - And they do. But stating that you need to cater to powergamers is just, forgive me for saying so, uninformed [profanity]. Totally agree. Communication is 110%. All in all, good points. I just can't understand the leveling/grinding thing. ~Polatrite~ | |