ID:152341
 
I've been revisiting alot of the old games I used to play so much of on Byond, hoping to recapture the magic of those first few months. What I've found is that things just aren't so much fun anymore, wether by code changes, elitism by the higher level players, decentralized playerbase (no main server, dozens of single-player fly-by-night servers), a lack of new players, or a lack of ANY players.

Going to a new game seems to be just a rehash of the old ideas with very little innovation. It's not just the copies/rips, where many claim to be the first or the original, or have permission or whatever, it's not just that. It's the same ideas that the 'owner' of that game liked, with nothing good to wrap it all up nicely into.

I've been thinking for a very long time about what I like in different games, the things that I keep thinking about that I loved from the past games. I've also seen what keeps new players coming in and keeps them playing months later. I'm not the only one with some ideas. I'd like to jump-start a discussion that will hopefully result in something wonderful for us all. I'm unsure if this should be in this forum, but it certainly doesn't belong in the Classifieds as I'm not trying to form or join a team.



Player Customization. What I think made Seika so much fun was the customization and item crafting available. There was a sense of creating something unique. The same customization is something that made a handful of the zeta rips like Rebirth such great games, if only for a short time. You could tweak your characters to make them unique when compared to other player's characters.

Item Customization. When you look at Diablo or World of Warcraft, you see an endless amount of equipment that you can customize your character with.

Grinding. No one likes grinding for stats/levels just so they can compete with other players. There must be a way to gain experience that does not force the player to grind. Zeta had its punching bags. Heroes United had its grav training for str/def just so you can do ANY damage to an npc. There eventually comes a time when every player is much stronger than any npc in the game. This is true in many different games. At this point, the only thing that the player can do to keep busy is to climb the never-ending staircase to surpass the strength of all the other players.

Economy. If everything is forever, eventually nothing is worth much. Items should degrade over time, but give people the ability to repair these items somehow. Don't force the players to rely on NPCs, but also don't make it possible for a player to completely ignore other players.

Character Abilities. Many games divide characters into classes, with each class restricted in their potential abilities and strengths in certain directions. This limits customization. If you go too far in the other direction and allow any character to use any ability, you get a cookie-cutter effect. Eventually you figure out which abilities are best to use for the character type you want to make, and you maximize those abilities. Give the player too much freedom in customization and everyone becomes a clone of one another, because that's the only type of character that can compete with other characters.

There should be limits to what strength a character can gain, but this limit should only be a realistic limit. If a player pushes hard enough, he should be able to surpass this limit. Truly dedicated players will see no literal wall between themselves and infinity, but with greater strength comes a greater length of time required for further improvement. There should always be a challenge ingame to really test the player's ability to play the game, not just a test of the stats the player's character has.

Character re-rolling. Sometimes you just get bored with your current character, but restarting seems to be a big step backwards, or a waste of time. In Star Wars Galaxies, you could choose a new set of stats. Over time, your character would grow into this new statistical layout.

HUD customization. Not everyone will agree with what should be displayed, how it should be displayed, and where it should be located. You can see in World of Warcraft with all the User Interface modifications available that HUD customization is something that everyone loves. I'd love to someday see a game that feels that customizable. While you can't let the player modify things on their end, you could give them a lot of options ingame. Create a customizable HUD that can display anything the player can think of, in any way that the game currently supports and in any spot on the screen the player chooses. Create a Tab that contains only the information that the player chooses to have in it. If it's the same data that everyone else has access to, why not allow the player to customize how they see that data, within the confines of the game? Beauty is in the eye of the mouse holder.

High-Level immunity. All players, in a pvp encounter, should be theoretically defeatable by anyone. This does not mean that you have a good chance to beat someone 100 times stronger just because you know what you're doing and he doesn't. I'm saying that there should still be a small possibility of scoring a hit, doing some damage, having an effect on a stronger opponent. In D&D this was portrayed as the critical hit and critical miss chance. No matter how skilled you were, there was always the chance that you would screw something up, or that the other character would get lucky and land a hit on you. This chance of you being defeated would increase with more people attacking you, as you would eventually be unable to keep healing the damage that you were taking.

Pretty colors with no substance to back it up. What makes a great game isn't just good icons and an idea. Fancy animations and good looks attract players for a short time, but a game that's good in all aspects will keep those players, who will then tell more people about your game. You'll get the curious people who see it on the hub, and you'll get the friends of already existing players who will simply beg for the chance to play this awesome game they heard about.



I want this to start some discussion about what makes a game a good game.

What makes a good game? When there is not many of the genre.

Searching football (Soccer to us brits, but that comes up with nothing at all... and soccer as a name sucks) shows only 5 results, and 3 of them are the American counterpart.

I'm surprised at what everyone has been doing over this time. Minus ripping anime games.
In response to RedlineM203
RedlineM203 wrote:
What makes a good game? When there is not many of the genre.

Right. Nice bull with no basis. Also, so if ANY game that happens to have many games in it's respective genre, it can't be a good game?
In response to Kaioken
Well, yeah, I thought you would be smart enough to figure out it has to be well done.
In response to RedlineM203
Nice attempt over there, but there was nothing to figure out. You said your statement, which means a game has to have little other games in it's genre to be good, nothing else. Which of course, I didn't agree with. I don't agree with it with the addition either, the above doesn't make a good game at any case.

Also, um. Yeah, thats very wise of you to say. A game is good if its well done... really?
In response to Kaioken
Kaioken wrote:
RedlineM203 wrote:
What makes a good game? When there is not many of the genre.

Right. Nice bull with no basis. Also, so if ANY game that happens to have many games in it's respective genre, it can't be a good game?

he mentioned one thing that makes a good game, not everything that makes a good game. being in a rare genre is something that is often overlooked, but can make games more appealing. and, from the way the OP seemed to focus on aspects of RPGs as making a good game, it seems as though he overlooked the less represented genres too. clearly a game is not automatically good if its in a rare genre, so there's no reason to assume that a game is automatically bad if its in a crowded genre.

to be good, a game has to be fun. its hard to go into a lot of depth because what makes one type of game fun could ruin another. puzzle games can be fun while lacking character development, pvp, item customization, an economy, and pretty much everything else you mentioned. have gameplay that is fun (to some degree) and design the rest of the game to be as simple and elegant as possible so that players don't get annoyed.

its kind of like writing a paper for school. write your thesis statement and stick by that. the rest of the paper is there to, in various ways, enhance the main point, not detract from it. much like you need to start with a good thesis statement, you'd need to start your game with a fun idea. the other parts of the game should enhance whatever your main fun part is. there are lots of good ideas out there that you could add to a game, but it depends on what the 'thesis statement' of the game is. some ideas, no matter how fun, just wouldn't work in certain games.
In response to OneFishDown
OneFishDown wrote:
he mentioned one thing that makes a good game, not everything that makes a good game.

Actually, no, he said THAT is what makes a good game. He later added that its only a part of a good game, it also has to be...good.

being in a rare genre is something that is often overlooked, but can make games more appealing.

Not in my opinion. It doesn't make much sense for a game to be more appealing just because its in a rare genre -- rather, something else, like being in a good or perhaps even a new genre.
In response to Kaioken
Kaioken wrote:
It doesn't make much sense for a game to be more appealing just because its in a rare genre

if you're judging the game on its genre instead of its overall quality, you'd be more inclined to let some flaws slide if the game is in a lesser represented genre (and particularly a genre that you like). for example, if i'm a huge fan of air hockey, i might love the only air hockey game on BYOND even though it has several flaws. however, i wouldn't like an RPG that is just as flawed because there are tons of RPGs on BYOND, and many of them are less flawed.

rather, something else, like being in a good or perhaps even a new genre.

if its a brand new genre, its a rare one :-P
In response to OneFishDown
OneFishDown wrote:
i might love the only air hockey game on BYOND even though it has several flaws.

Well, that may make the game liked more, but it doesn't make it better if players choose it simply because there is no other choice.

if its a brand new genre, its a rare one :-P

Well, its much more than just a rare genre, of course.
In response to Kaioken
Kaioken wrote:
Actually, no, he said THAT is what makes a good game. He later added that its only a part of a good game, it also has to be...good.

I only said that because you exploited the loophole which made me have to say that.
In response to Kaioken
Which means my latest project can be worse then BOTLS and still get fans.
In response to RedlineM203
Yes. Though I'm not sure if it actually CAN be worse than BOTLS. :D >_>
In response to Kaioken
*randomly walks in*

OHHHH BURRRRNNN!!! 0wnt dawg! lol@u

Translation: >_>
In response to Torla2217
pointless posts ftw?
The next best game will be mine, Middle Earth. look for it soon :D
Cheeseburgermafia wrote:
Player Customization. What I think made Seika so much fun was the customization and item crafting available. There was a sense of creating something unique.

I guess later on it wasn't too bad when you actually had to go out and find these rare components to make items, but at the beginning it was really, really boring. Mine a bunch, make a bunch of junk, mine more, make more junk items.


I think you've overcomplicated everything by trying to take every good element of a bunch of games. At the end of the day you could make a great game with a single cool thing, say a good battle system or a fun crafting system, and then just leave the rest as decent but not great systems.
In response to DarkView
The next best game is a hard question. Everyone likes games in a different way so there are many different types of games. And each game can suit a person differently. While some people may like a first person shooter others may like an rpg or even a simple difference of single player vs multi-player.

But if I were to guess at the next best game.... A game that is easy to understand yet difficult to play. Where you can win(play) in many different ways and yet never truly win the game. A game that consists of many qualities that tie together and can be played seperatly, while still drawing in attention. In other words, no game will be the next best.

Simply because almost all of the people on byond are trying to make a new fan game or some little war game. If you want to make the next best game, your going to have to go with originality in all it's complexity. In other words a game that is niether a copy-off of another game or outside influence and is completly new.