Death and how it should be done?

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Jan 11 2008, 2:45 pm
In response to Baladin
I wasn't being harsh about it to begin with. I was being harsh about it when you completely and totally missed the point of what I was saying.

Well, maybe not you specifically, but people in this thread.
Jan 11 2008, 10:43 pm
In response to Jamesburrow
Jamesburrow wrote:
Most religions have a hell, which seems to be rather penalizing.

Note that I said 'reality', not 'unproveable-cult-indoctrinated-reality'. :)

But that also generates ideas for dealing with player-character death. If the player died well (not due to a stupid or evil action), then reward the player with a trip to digital-purgatory, treated as a side-adventure with some reasonably attainable reward. A bad/stupid/evil death also gets a trip to digital-purgatory as a side adventure and needs an attainable goal performed in order to 'return to life'. If the goal is distasteful enough (cleaning out dragon-pens, or washing the feet of a giant), the player will hopefully learn to avoid getting into that situation to begin with. Then it can be treated as a 'learning experience' instead of an outright penalty.
Jan 11 2008, 11:14 pm
In response to digitalmouse
digitalmouse wrote:
Jamesburrow wrote:
Most religions have a hell, which seems to be rather penalizing.

Note that I said 'reality', not 'unproveable-cult-indoctrinated-reality'. :)

Well, that just brings back the concept of permadeath then :P If you die, you cease to exist xD

But that also generates ideas for dealing with player-character death. If the player died well (not due to a stupid or evil action), then reward the player with a trip to digital-purgatory, treated as a side-adventure with some reasonably attainable reward. A bad/stupid/evil death also gets a trip to digital-purgatory as a side adventure and needs an attainable goal performed in order to 'return to life'. If the goal is distasteful enough (cleaning out dragon-pens, or washing the feet of a giant), the player will hopefully learn to avoid getting into that situation to begin with. Then it can be treated as a 'learning experience' instead of an outright penalty.

Right. As I decided was the best way : An afterlife based off of a karma system, with permadeath as a possibility (but a rather unlikely one, I would think).
Jan 12 2008, 7:32 am
In response to Jamesburrow
But it doesn't generally reward or penalize dying. It rewards or penalizes the actions taken prior to death.
Jan 12 2008, 2:01 pm
In response to Jmurph
Eh, that's true, lol.
Jan 15 2008, 10:28 am
In response to Garthor
I didn't play Mario Galaxy, but I know Mario in general wouldn't be fun to me at all if I knew I can freely jump into lava or tackle monsters without any penalty. You decide whether you enjoy that or not.

Another example can be just about any roll-playing game played from start to end with infinite HP and no chance of bad dialogue penalties.

The sense of accomplishment comes from ACCOMPLISHING something, not from being penalized when you don't.

You don't feel like you've accomplished something without challenge. I don't know what causes challenge if not penalties.
Jan 15 2008, 1:06 pm
In response to DivineO'peanut
DivineO'peanut wrote:
I didn't play Mario Galaxy, but I know Mario in general wouldn't be fun to me at all if I knew I can freely jump into lava or tackle monsters without any penalty. You decide whether you enjoy that or not.

Another example can be just about any roll-playing game played from start to end with infinite HP and no chance of bad dialogue penalties.

The sense of accomplishment comes from ACCOMPLISHING something, not from being penalized when you don't.

You don't feel like you've accomplished something without challenge. I don't know what causes challenge if not penalties.

How don't you get this? Death itself is the penalty. There doesn't need to be another penalty heaped on top of death. That'd be a penalty for being penalized, which is absolutely absurd.
Jan 15 2008, 4:48 pm
In response to Garthor
Absurd to you, maybe. But I think it is more than obvious by now not everyone agrees with your form of anti-logic.

I don't know about you, but I agree with Peanut. I would have no fun in a game where death did not have some kind of penalty.
Jan 15 2008, 5:38 pm
In response to Jamesburrow
Death is a means of failure. Why should players be penalized for failing something?

Should they be forced to play a minigame if they fail to craft a Copper Sword?

Should they be forced to find somebody to "resurrect" them if they miss an attack?

Should they be forced to stop playing for half an hour if they can't figure out a goddamn Sokoban puzzle?

The penalty is implicit in that there was a failure. Attaching more penalty on top of that is redundant and obnoxious.
Jan 15 2008, 6:11 pm
In response to Garthor
Garthor wrote:
Should they be forced to play a minigame if they fail to craft a Copper Sword?
If they fail to craft the sword, they lose the copper they were attempting to craft the sword with.

Should they be forced to find somebody to "resurrect" them if they miss an attack?
No, they just have a greater chance of dying, and then having to find someone to resurrect them.

Should they be forced to stop playing for half an hour if they can't figure out a goddamn Sokoban puzzle?
No, they just have to keep wasting time trying to figure out said sokoban puzzle.

The penalty is implicit in that there was a failure. Attaching more penalty on top of that is redundant and obnoxious.
Says you.
Jan 15 2008, 6:13 pm
In response to Jamesburrow
Good job totally failing to get my point.
Jan 15 2008, 6:16 pm
In response to Garthor
Maybe I failed to get it because you had none?
Jan 15 2008, 6:50 pm
In response to Jamesburrow
My point is that failure in any other aspect doesn't have an additional penalty tacked onto it. People (read: you) seem to think that death is an exception for gof-knows-why, and players deserve to get the crap beaten out of them for dying.
Jan 16 2008, 12:15 am
In response to Garthor
How don't you get this? Death itself is the penalty. There doesn't need to be another penalty heaped on top of death. That'd be a penalty for being penalized, which is absolutely absurd.

Then what happens when you die? Restarting the level is already a penalty.
Jan 16 2008, 12:49 am
In response to Garthor
Garthor wrote:
My point is that failure in any other aspect doesn't have an additional penalty tacked onto it. People (read: you) seem to think that death is an exception for gof-knows-why, and players deserve to get the crap beaten out of them for dying.

If you die, you've made a mistake of some sort. You've essentially 'lost' the game, through a choice you've made. Creating a penalty for death isn't penalizing death, its penalizing the mistake you made which led to death. If there is no penalty (You simply start off where you were right before you died, in the state you were in before death, f.ex), then there is no incentive NOT to make those mistakes. For quite a lot of people, that removes a massive element of challenge (Beating the odds is meaningless if the consequence of not doing so is nil).

What you're talking about loosely equates to turning on 'god-mode' in an FPS game. In an FPS game, restarting the level is the penalty, usually - Or at the last checkpoint. Do you think thats an unfair penalty? Its penalizing death, after all.
Jan 16 2008, 12:12 pm
In response to Alathon
I'm not saying "OMG DETH SHUD MAEK U REZ IN TEH SAEM SPOT WIT FUL LIF" because that's dumb. The result of death is that you fail your CURRENT ENCOUNTER - you know, the one you died on - and you have to attempt it again. The conditions that lead to their death are restored: everything that was killed in the bout of combat comes back to life. It's not like "God Mode" in the slightest, and you're insane to compare the two. "God Mode" lets you beat an impossible fight because you can't be killed. Not getting reamed lets you attempt a fight you've lost again, without having to do a thousand push-ups to satisfy the sadistic needs of some game developer.

Now, the question here is: why do people feel a need to punish people for playing their game? What harm is caused by somebody dying repeatedly on an encounter, attempting to beat it? That's a rhetorical question, because I know the answer: there is none. Nothing bad will come of letting somebody have their fun by dying repeatedly. And yet, you people STILL feel this urge to punish the player for playing the game in a manner that they find fun. Why? You hide behind claims such as "they should" or "it makes sense" but you never actually give any tangible rationale. It's just the way it should be and should be that way because that's the way it is. It gets tiring trying to talk with people who think this way.
Jan 16 2008, 1:44 pm
In response to Garthor
In all fairness, your statements seem to consistently argue against any death penalty. If I understand you mean *excessive* death penalties. Having to restart the battles, redo the maze, etc. is still a penalty. Perhaps it would be better to talk in terms of consequence and penalty. In most games, death should have some sort of consequence to enable meaningful game choices. However, excessive penalization acts as a deterrent to any action which could possibly result in that penalty. In a game which relies on systems that may reach such a result, the outcome maybe disastrous.

Yet, it is all part of the game design. If the wager is success or deletion, and this is clearly stated going in, the obviously the players who stick around like this prospect. Maybe they are a minority, but if that is the target audience, it works (see Roguelikes). What I don't understand is how anyone can unequivocally state that severe death penalties are bad in all cases anymore than that they are good in all cases.
Jan 16 2008, 3:42 pm
In response to Jmurph
Exactly. In a game where you can get the same results without combat, and where combat is only there for RP purposes, I see no problem with imposing stricter penalties to those who die in combat, and higher rewards to those who manage to survive.
Jan 16 2008, 4:23 pm
In response to Jamesburrow
Why have combat at all if you're just going to punish players for doing it?

Hell, you're talking about "roleplayers" here. If they decide that they should delete their characters for losing a duel to the death, then let them do that. There's no need for you, as the game developer, to impose the penalty on them.
Jan 16 2008, 6:33 pm
In response to Garthor
House rules and all that.

When I played GURPS over at my friend Walter's house, we had to tear up and burn our character sheet when they died. We had ample chance to revive our character, but when they died they were dead and there was no brining them back.

We still had a full house every time when we played. If you don't like the rules, don't play, it is pretty simple. There will always be another place to replace the last one that left.
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