In my Gauntlet game, the current demo release has it set so that if you step into a water tile without being able to swim, you drown. Oops, stepped too far, now you're dead! Start over! Given the "everything kills you" nature of the game, this seemed like a good idea at the time. Plus it was more-less based on the Chip's Challenge concept at the time, and that's how it was handled in that game.
Now I'm wondering if its a good idea or just an added frustration. On the one hand, it requires that you be more careful where you step and I could easily create areas that are extra challenging to navigate because of the water hazards. On the other hand, anyone who's not familiar with water could walk up to a river or a shoreline and drown. Whoops! Frustrating? What do you think? Should stepping into water kill you, or should water just be another dense, non-opaque tile.
ID:152083
 Mar 9 2008, 7:38 pm
|
|
I don't see anything wrong with starting over on a water tile. It's just another "don't step here" tile like pits and traps and such. Your approach is consistent. Kinda reminds me of the gameplay of a Prince of Persia I had on an old amiga. Each level had pits and traps and any wrong move put you back to the beginning.
| |
Here is the way I'm doing it for my project I'm beginning to think will never be finished :P
The water has different depths and speeds. Depending on the depth and speed of the water, and the height and swimming skill of the player, will depend on their success of actually getting across without the need of the bridge. Also, with the speed of the water, it raises the possibility of getting pushed to the other side but also raises the possibility of getting pushed too far of course and messing your whole plan up. Just a lot of little features like that :P | |
Water should be dense for people who can answer a simple yes or no question, and deadly for people who insist on answering said yes or no question with a long dissertation that completely deviates from the concept.
| |
I think I prefer Garthor's reply. I'm not sure the rest of you have any idea what the game was about.
| |
Maybe take two steps into water and drown, or certain waters can be stepped through, or have water hazards so when you say go through water its fine but there is deep parts in waters that kill you, or whirlpools, or strong currents, that you can visually see.
| |
It's no more frustrating than any other thing that kills you on contact. That's the nature of such puzzle games. You quickly learn what not to touch!
| |
Foomer wrote:
In my Gauntlet game, the current demo release has it set so that if you step into a water tile without being able to swim, you drown. Oops, stepped too far, now you're dead! Start over! Given the "everything kills you" nature of the game, this seemed like a good idea at the time. Plus it was more-less based on the Chip's Challenge concept at the time, and that's how it was handled in that game. Water should only kill you if Rain can also kill you. | |
Traztx wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with starting over on a water tile. It's just another "don't step here" tile like pits and traps and such. Your approach is consistent. Exactly, but not exactly as you said (:P). I disagree - just like you said, it's yet another "don't step here" tile, which means including it would be quite useless given if there are other such tiles, the only change is in the icon. However, when you fall down a pit, you die, and when you get pierced by a trap, you die, but when you fall into water, you don't die (<small> not necessarily and not instantly, anyway</small>), just like said by Obs. In fact, if you fall down a pit and there is water in the bottom, you're saved. :P No, but what I'm getting at is, if you're going to include water instead of just a pit and having no water whatsoever (sure, you might not want that since it's possibly unrealistic but thats irrelevant for the main point here) then make it different from a pit, so you truly have variety! I like the possible functions posted by others here like getting carried by the water to another shore etc, possibly using items or maybe even catching ones along the way. This adds more variety than is first realized into your game, though not all may be necessarily wanted: -You can now lose items in the game and swimming people including you can get them back. -You can now access new places by getting carried over by currents into them, and after learning to swim you can bypass those currents and instead access another new place, beyond them. -You could even add diving and the possibility of going into an underwater cave and rising on dry ground on a different place, finding certain items under the water, etc. That's just some of the possibilities of course, you could use water to put out a fire or lure an enemy to drowning or whatever as long as it suits your game. | |
Well, apparantly long dissertations are frowned upon. So I'll answer yes...and no. (It's conditional.)
If you have a delay on movement, then probably yes. If not, I think more than anything they're gonna hold down the key and go flying, straight into the water. I wouldn't want to feel like I have to walk on eggshells the entire level. A speed control would probably help reduce the "omg I just lagged into the water of death" factor, too. | |
Chessmaster_19 wrote:
Well, apparantly long dissertations are frowned upon. Long dissertations - no. People who have no clue what I'm talking about and assume that my game is another MORPG and suggest ideas based on that - yes. If you have a delay on movement, then probably yes. There is no delay in movement, but movement is restricted in in that the macros aren't allowed to repeat. You move one tile per key press. Its kind of obnoxious but its the only way to give the player precise, quick movement. | |
Obs wrote:
Water should only kill you if Rain can also kill you. I'm not a fan of ultra-realistic games. | |
I'm not sure most of the ideas would fit in my game given that it's single-player and losing items would cripple the gameplay (like losing an energy tank and high jump because you feel in the lava in Super Metroid).
While what you said about it being "quite useless given if there are other such tiles" isn't quite true since, even though you'd die from stepping on it, the ways of making it passable would be different than other forms of terrain. However, regardless of that, I was thinking that instead of instant death I might make it so that the player will be able to swim for either a short period of time or for a certain number of tiles. Having them swim for a short period of time would be more realistic, but also more hectic and potentially frustrating. Having them swim for a certain number of tiles would make it more controllable, but also more abusable, since you could hop into the water to avoid enemies. Either way it would allow me to include more items which would upgrade the player's ability to swim longer distances. And more items to include are always good. | |
One thing I was thinking of was having water be a non-fatal thing and enterable, but also a barrier that you cannot cross.
Specifically, if you jump into water, you stay in the water tile, helpless, for two seconds, then climb back out the way you got in. This would be bad for homing-type enemies because it would give them more time to surround you. For enemies that follow a specific pattern of movement, it could be a strategic element involved in some puzzles. | |
I agree with this idea. I was going to make a post earlier about how water shouldn't be deadly in itself, but only in combination with other, moving obstacles. Like how a wall isn't really deadly unless if it makes a one-tile-wide corridor for a monster to patrol. However, I decided not to.
So, this way, water is like a more dangerous wall. You're not going to die by stepping into it... unless if you're being chased by something. | |
Foomer wrote:
Obs wrote: Most people aren't. But a good compromise is often to create the feeling of realism, without actually resorting to realism. | |
Foomer wrote:
...seemed like a good idea at the time. Plus it was more-less based on the Chip's Challenge concept at the time, and that's how it was handled in that game. What do you think? Should stepping into water kill you, or should water just be another dense, non-opaque tile. I think it's been hinted at in the thread, but I'd probably go ahead and steal good ideas when you see them and make water tiles like the conveyor belts in Chip's. Since your game is primarily about timing and getting from point a to point b, river tiles (if drawn so that it's obvious which way the water's flowing) that moved you involuntarily would be a plus challenge-wise. I could imagine certain tiles you could crawl out on, but others (like the cave walls of underground rivers) you'd just hafta flow with. Forks in the river system could offer up some timing or exploration options, too. Some river/sewer systems could point you toward actual killing tiles (or water monsters' paths) or even whirlpools that move you to another z-level or map (or special rooms). I liked the conveyors in Dark Forces and, even farther back in the pleistocine epoch, the rivers/ice in Ultima Underworld. I've always been a fan of taking one movement system and changing the parameters so a player has to relearn a new way of moving. Sounds like your ideas are flowing again at any rate. | |
TheMonkeyDidIt wrote:
I think it's been hinted at in the thread, but I'd probably go ahead and steal good ideas when you see them and make water tiles like the conveyor belts in Chip's. Since your game is primarily about timing and getting from point a to point b, river tiles (if drawn so that it's obvious which way the water's flowing) that moved you involuntarily would be a plus challenge-wise. I could imagine certain tiles you could crawl out on, but others (like the cave walls of underground rivers) you'd just hafta flow with. Forks in the river system could offer up some timing or exploration options, too. Some river/sewer systems could point you toward actual killing tiles (or water monsters' paths) or even whirlpools that move you to another z-level or map (or special rooms). Since I never mentioned so, I'm going with this idea, since it presents water as something besides another way to die. And, as stated, it offers up "some timing or exploration options", and in an exploration game, more ways to explore is better than more ways to die. Plus, rivers fit in better with the scenery than conveyor belts. | |
If you step into a water tile without being able to swim, you drift hopelessly down some current and get deposited wherever. It's kind of a compromise on the dying situation; you have to start over, but from a less critical standpoint. Naturally, the ability to swim could mean the current either doesn't affect you or it has a greatly reduced impact.
Edit: It may also be worthwhile to swing it more towards the dying deal in the compromise and add some form of withstanding punishment. Perhaps while drifting there is a possibility of losing items in the water? If you wanted to get really fancy, maybe swimming peoples could find lost items in the water.
Hiead