Grinding

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Sep 12 2008, 12:38 pm
In response to Jeff8500
Jeff8500 wrote:
People like grinding? Pfft, no lifers.

Why thank you >:)! No-Lifing is my life's work >:).
Sep 12 2008, 1:39 pm
In response to Theodis
Theodis wrote:
But long story short. Yeah the grinding certainly isn't noticeable when it isn't in the least bit required to progress.

Well if you were unable to beat the game, it certainly was required to progress. The game was pretty easy, but it was just so fun.

As far as the last autosave goes, the game does not save progress made during quests, so you can load up your game, spawn in the guild and develop all of your skills.

You will also find that in Fable, you will always run into the armor and weapons necessary to progress. It's made to be simple and indeed it is, but it was oh so fun. Invest in the Lost Chapters, a lot more content is added to the game and it is not quite as easy.
Sep 13 2008, 2:31 pm
In response to CaptFalcon33035
Well if you were unable to beat the game, it certainly was required to progress. The game was pretty easy, but it was just so fun.

It wasn't. If I had bought a better bow or used all my unspent exp I could have easily won. The game just stupidly gives you no warning that ranged attacks are required and hadn't required them at all prior to that point.

As far as the last autosave goes, the game does not save progress made during quests, so you can load up your game, spawn in the guild and develop all of your skills.

Nope however for the final part you can get stuck when the guild hall is in ruins and you can't leave since it isn't a quest. I think the game even warns you about it. However since I hadn't bothered yet and it wasn't really necessary up until that point I didn't bother.

Invest in the Lost Chapters, a lot more content is added to the game and it is not quite as easy.

Not as easy? Now that's just scary. I was playing the Lost Chapters. How could it possibly be easier :P?
Sep 13 2008, 6:33 pm
In response to Theodis
Theodis wrote:
Well if you were unable to beat the game, it certainly was required to progress.

It wasn't. If I had bought a better bow or used all my unspent exp I could have easily won. The game just stupidly gives you no warning that ranged attacks are required and hadn't required them at all prior to that point.

What in the world do you think buying a new bow or spending unspent experience on skills means?! That's ABSOLUTELY what it was--required.


As far as the last autosave goes, the game does not save progress made during quests, so you can load up your game, spawn in the guild and develop all of your skills.

Nope however for the final part you can get stuck when the guild hall is in ruins and you can't leave since it isn't a quest. I think the game even warns you about it. However since I hadn't bothered yet and it wasn't really necessary up until that point I didn't bother.

Uh... yep. It does allow you to reload the old game and it is a quest.
Sep 14 2008, 4:00 am
In response to CaptFalcon33035
CaptFalcon33035 wrote:
Theodis wrote:
Well if you were unable to beat the game, it certainly was required to progress.

It wasn't. If I had bought a better bow or used all my unspent exp I could have easily won. The game just stupidly gives you no warning that ranged attacks are required and hadn't required them at all prior to that point.

What in the world do you think buying a new bow or spending unspent experience on skills means?! That's ABSOLUTELY what it was--required.

You're not understanding his point, or you're just grasping at straws. Or both.

If you implement a function into the game that isn't required until the very last fight of the game, picking it up doesn't necessarily make sense. And thus it wasn't picked up, and thats all that hurt him. Grinding means physically halting or slowing down progress by requiring a player to do something repeatedly - Which he indicates wasn't necessary at all. And since he had the points to get the bow/bow skill/whatever without grinding, that indicates that it isn't necessary to do.
Sep 14 2008, 4:40 am
In response to Alathon
Alathon wrote:
If you implement a function into the game that isn't required until the very last fight of the game, picking it up doesn't necessarily make sense.

You're really pretty much expected to level that stuff up along the path of progressing through the game, there are a lot of secrets in the game that require that. You also forget that what might not be necessary for him may be necessary for others--the game may not be so easy for others. And to say he went through the game without leveling up once--well, it was easy but not THAT easy, and it probably took him much longer than it otherwise would have.

In short, don't try to reason out another's opinion when trying to prove a point.

Grinding means physically halting or slowing down progress by requiring a player to do something repeatedly - Which he indicates wasn't necessary at all. And since he had the points to get the bow/bow skill/whatever without grinding, that indicates that it isn't necessary to do.

Would he have had those experience points if he hadn't walked the lands filled with enemies to combat? If they weren't there, just imagine how quick the game would be. Blew your mind, didn't it? As I've said before, the grind is unnoticeable. It obviously was required, though, wasn't it?
Sep 14 2008, 4:48 am
In response to CaptFalcon33035
CaptFalcon33035 wrote:
Would he have had those experience points if he hadn't walked the lands filled with enemies to combat? If they weren't there, just imagine how quick the game would be. Blew your mind, didn't it? As I've said before, the grind is unnoticeable. It obviously was required, though, wasn't it?

I'm not reasoning out anyone elses opinion, I'm pointing out a gaping flaw in your logic. But since you haven't picked up on it already, then I don't see much point in continuing to point out what you seem to be missing. The paragraph I've quoted is enough to point out what you don't get.
Sep 14 2008, 4:57 am
In response to Alathon
Alathon wrote:
CaptFalcon33035 wrote:
Would he have had those experience points if he hadn't walked the lands filled with enemies to combat? If they weren't there, just imagine how quick the game would be. Blew your mind, didn't it? As I've said before, the grind is unnoticeable. It obviously was required, though, wasn't it?

I'm not reasoning out anyone elses opinion, I'm pointing out a gaping flaw in your logic. But since you haven't picked up on it already, then I don't see much point in continuing to point out what you seem to be missing. The paragraph I've quoted is enough to point out what you don't get.

So let me get this straight:

Leveling is required to beat the game.
You level by gaining experience and using it to level your stats one by one. You do not level automatically.
You gain experience by defeating enemies. This is the entire game.
The process is very tedious, there are many enemies to beat.
Without the enemies, the game would be otherwise very quick.
There would actually be no game without the enemies.
He needs to level up to beat the game.
The entire game is a grind.
He needs to level to beat the game.
He needs to level to beat the game.
In order to level, he needs to defeat many many enemies.

And yet, there is something I don't get...

His progress is certainly impeded by the need to level up.
Sep 14 2008, 6:51 am
In response to CaptFalcon33035
CaptFalcon33035 wrote:
And yet, there is something I don't get...

His progress is certainly impeded by the need to level up.

This is the gist of it. Grinding isn't *anything* that impedes your progress. By that definition, every single game in all genres that has *any* content at all is stock-full of grinding, and thats all those games contain. Performing actions that progress you towards your goal doesn't indicate grinding.

If that is your definition, then fine. But in discussions it happens to be useful to stick to the common definitions so that people understand what you mean. And by grinding, what is usually meant is halting or stopping actual game-progress by repeatedly killing monsters or performing the same task ad nauseum until you've reached a certain plateau.

Such as grinding in FF8 until you reach max amount of Drawn magics for all characters, in order to have an easier time throughout the rest of the game. Or grinding(ie repeatedly killing) the same mobs over and over, once you run out of quests to do, in order to reach the next level.

I had to stop working on the storyline in FF8 because my characters were very low level, to go to an area and kill the same mobs over and over until my characters were stronger. Theodis is indicating that he never had to do such a thing, and the only reason he wasn't able to complete the game was due to bad game design.
Sep 14 2008, 9:19 am
In response to Alathon
Alathon wrote:
Grinding isn't *anything* that impedes your progress.

It looks like you just skipped everything else. Grinding != Progress. I never said grinding impeded progress.

Alathon wrote:
Grinding means physically halting or slowing down progress by requiring a player to do something repeatedly - Which he indicates wasn't necessary at all. And since he had the points to get the bow/bow skill/whatever without grinding, that indicates that it isn't necessary to do.

CaptFalcon33035 wrote:
Leveling is required to beat the game.
You level by gaining experience and using it to level your stats one by one. You do not level automatically.
You gain experience by defeating enemies. This is the entire game.
The process is very tedious, there are many enemies to beat.
Without the enemies, the game would be otherwise very quick.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?


And by grinding, what is usually meant is halting or stopping actual game-progress by repeatedly killing monsters or performing the same task ad nauseum until you've reached a certain plateau.

There isn't necessarily a plateau to reach.


Theodis is indicating that he never had to do such a thing, and the only reason he wasn't able to complete the game was due to bad game design.

Maybe it was bad game design, but Theodis also didn't mention that the entire game is a fight. All you do in that game is fight things and pay attention to the story and fight things. That's why the grind isn't noticeable. You cannot move from map to map without engaging in at least one fight and that serves a purpose--to help to prepare the user for what's up next. Theodis was prepared, he just wasn't cautious enough.

He was prepared because he did grind and he did that throughout the entire game. It's very repetitious. You're implying that a grind is a process that halts gameplay completely in order to prepare yourself for what you face, when in fact, that is incorrect. It only slows gameplay. Alas! That is Fable. It prepares you for every challenge you face making the game play much longer than it would, but it's up to the player to use such preparations. If he wasn't rushing through the game, he'd have those skills needed to progress and beat Jack of Blades because many of the aspects of the game require use of the bow.

Hell, he could have even used his magical abilities. Those are certainly long-ranged weapons, and magic abilities are used all over the place.

[Edit]
You are looking at it in a very solid manner. If you loosened your restrictions on it a little, you'd see that an aspect of the game is grinding even if the player knows it or not, and it's a BIG aspect at that. Games are meant to be open to interpretation, so have an open mind and an imagination. I bet your game-playing experiences will become much better.
Sep 15 2008, 7:44 am
I've noticed that a game Ive played alittle bit called Atlantica Online never really seems like it is much grinding. The reason, I feel, for this is the fact that you are always doing something. The entire game from start to where I am now is quests. They always ask you to do a quest to get some item or do something that makes it feel like you are doing something, not just grinding. To add to it, level requirements aren't very large. The game is fun and you don't realize that you level unless someone congradulates you.

My simple method for this is that you need to always be doing something in a game. Instead of going, "Hey, you need to do this, and to do it you need to be level 9000," make it so that from level 1, the very start of the game, to that level 9000 thing, you are doing quests and things to lead up to it.
For example "Hey you just started the game! Heres a tutorial. Finished the tutorial? Heres a new thing to do, gather 10 of this item from this monster. Done that? Now kill this thing thats invading us. Done that? Now go make this item, you can make it by doing whatever you want. Done that? Now heres some more info about the game. Done that? Now go do this...etc."
You are always on a quest to do something and aren't sitting around killing the same thing for 6 hours to get a single level.
Sep 15 2008, 7:54 am
In response to Xooxer
That's actually a good idea. It forces people to move on. I can think of a good example of this too: Trainers in Oblivion. They can teach you to a certain point, but after that point they have nothing else they can teach you. You can only kill so many slimes before they stop meaning anything to you. You might learn how to break a certain type of guard or something with a blade (EXP for Blade skills), but after a while that slime is just a blob of goo that is easily dispatched. If you have learned all that blob of goo is ever going to teach you, purposly or not, you will learn nothing more from it. Maybe that goo hits hard, so you learn to better defend against hard hits, aka armor skills. But it can only teach you to a certain point of skill. You can't get your Blade skill beyond 10 or your Armor skill beyond 20 on that slime because of this.

I think thats a good idea.
Sep 15 2008, 8:02 am
In response to CaptFalcon33035
Maybe it was bad game design, but Theodis also didn't mention that the entire game is a fight. All you do in that game is fight things and pay attention to the story and fight things. That's why the grind isn't noticeable. You cannot move from map to map without engaging in at least one fight and that serves a purpose--to help to prepare the user for what's up next. Theodis was prepared, he just wasn't cautious enough.

How is that different from virtually any other RPG :P? And no I wasn't cautious. I had little clue how to play the game and was racing against other people to finish. Stopping to level or even figure out unnecessary stuff would have just slow me down which ironically included leveling up for a long time since the game just wasn't hard enough to justify it.

You're implying that a grind is a process that halts gameplay completely in order to prepare yourself for what you face, when in fact, that is incorrect.

Halts the progression of the game not the gameplay as RPGs are notorious about having a grind as part of the typical gameplay.

It only slows gameplay. Alas! That is Fable. It prepares you for every challenge you face making the game play much longer than it would, but it's up to the player to use such preparations.

And that's why people here are wanting to find ways around the grind since the only point is to artificially prolong a game without new content or challenges. Simply repetition to reuse old content. However I think they're missing the point for an online game. To most people it's a social experience and something to do with friends rather than something to go through and beat. The real issue with MMORPGs is having content so locked to level ranges that people are forced to try and rush through for the sake of being able to play with higher level friends.

If he wasn't rushing through the game, he'd have those skills needed to progress and beat Jack of Blades because many of the aspects of the game require use of the bow.

None vital to progressing aside from the end evidently. And that's just it. Since I wasn't really spending anything and had plenty of left over exp all I had to do was purchase/use it not go out and grind for it. And heck the last bosses moves weren't that difficult from what I remember so I'm sure even in my state it was more than possible it'd only take me hours to do enough damage to finish. It just wouldn't be fun.

Hell, he could have even used his magical abilities. Those are certainly long-ranged weapons, and magic abilities are used all over the place.

I made it that far without any at all. I was pure melee.

You are looking at it in a very solid manner. If you loosened your restrictions on it a little, you'd see that an aspect of the game is grinding even if the player knows it or not, and it's a BIG aspect at that.

The point of this thread isn't to categorize everything as grinding. Rather come up with ways to eliminate the obvious kind and its strayed a bit. I think the point however was that while you could grind in Fable it just wasn't necessary. However a grind to you is a much different thing so obviously the game is one big grind. How that is an improvement to you is beyond me since typically a grind is seen as a negative thing not positive. So how loose is your definition anyway. This string of postings is starting to feel like a grind to me!

Games are meant to be open to interpretation, so have an open mind and an imagination. I bet your game-playing experiences will become much better.

Tweaking definitions has never made games more fun for me :P. Same old game you're just using the incorrect words to describe it!
Sep 15 2008, 10:39 am
In response to Polantaris
F2P or P2P ?
Sep 15 2008, 11:34 am
In response to Andre-g1
F2P
Its in Closed Beta atm tho, I think its coming out soon, but you should register anyway XD.
Sep 28 2008, 10:56 am
In response to Jeff8500
The best way to remove grinding is to make actually killing an enemy more fun than the reward you get at the end.

For example, look at Planetside, it's a MMOGFPS, so the kills themselves are more fun than the rewards you get FOR killing.

Of course, BYOND could never do a FPS, but there's plenty of ways to remove grinding similarly.

I've been working on some Alternate Battle Systems, normally with mouse controls, but some good ideas are to make an RPG where battles are played out like a Fighting game (IE: Soul Calibur), or where battles are done in a different genre than the rest of the game. Although, I have actually been brainstorming a potential new genre altogether..
Sep 28 2008, 7:29 pm
In response to Mechana2412
Sep 29 2008, 1:07 am (Edited by moderator on Sep 29 2008, 6:46 am)
In response to A.T.H.K
A.T.H.K wrote:
Do i need to go on? although it will be wolfenstein style but still proves you wrong.

Is there any possible way you could not look like a total *edited-Watch the language* in your 'ZOMG I proves j00 wRongz" comment!?

And just because its wolfenstein style doesnt mean it would be bad, the framerate is the weakness here. So it is more of a fact an FPS with very average expectations cant be done.
A first person view tho can be used for other types of games and its very much useful. But a twitch based game like most first person view games is a waste of time to create in byond.
Sep 29 2008, 1:04 pm
In response to Bragging Rights
Bragging Rights wrote:
Is there any possible way you could not look like a total *edited-Watch the language* in your 'ZOMG I proves j00 wRongz" comment!?

Wow calm down ......


And just because its wolfenstein style doesnt mean it would be bad,

Who said it would be bad i love wolfenstein ....

the framerate is the weakness here.

Obviously ...


But a twitch based game like most first person view games is a waste of time to create in byond.

That is your opinion ....
Oct 5 2008, 6:16 pm
I have actually been theorizing the team-work model myself, more just to heighten the sense of community required in a game and to stop the people who grind on purpose. If you want community, split XP even; competition, come up with a qualification for it (damage, aid to allies, handicap system).

I like Xooxer's XP-pool idea as a check on a hybrid system. Some enemies are 1-on-1 killable, but this means you get all the XP and saps your pool more quickly. Other enemies require parties of attackers to slay, and since XP is split, the pool dries slowly and players can enjoy the game longer. It also demands content in the form of new enemies since the pool system implies an XP-cap. And content is good... very good.

Speaking of, at least one of the FF games on here implemented a level cap at some point--I think at the game's release mostly to keep things fair until the game flourished a little more. I'm personally against limiting progress that way--it's somewhat artificial and can better be done in ways that stay in the gameplay.

As far as quest go, my experience as a gamer is that some people just don't care about them (especially in MMOs with player v. player capability). In Runescape, for example, while some quests allowed for better armors and weapons, due to the leveling system and the combat constraints imposed by it, it's sometimes a generally a bad idea to do a quest unless the equipment gainable became an ABSOLUTE necessity to p v. p survival.

So, mostly I'd say keep with the team thing, the XP-pool works as long as you don't consider that "punishing" (and the whole thing actually is pretty realistic--way to go Xooxer), and good luck!
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