Games typically depict blacksmithing very simply. The average crafting system is hit a rock for some ore, throw the ore in a coal pit / furnace, throw the ore in a coal pit / furnace again, hit the ore on an anvil with a hammer somewhere nearby.
The most intricate system I've seen is in Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, which actually employs the use of crucibles and molds and liquid metal.
What I want to know if what is REAL blacksmithing like? What are the actual steps that go into making a sword? Armor?
This is my guess, please correct me as necessary:
1. Place metal in furnace
2. Furnace has hole in bottom that allows liquid metal to pour into a crucible
3. Use tongs / whatever you would call them to grab the crucible (and not fry the hell out of your hands)
4. Pour the molten metal into a mold.
4B. The mold would be a wooden ?or? metal box filled with sand and clay that was shaped by placing a carved wooden or crafted granite figurine that looked like whatever you were making.
5. Pour water over the mold
6. Remove the sword from the mold, put it into a fire
7. When red hot, mack it wif a hammer.
8. Rapidly cool the metal in water (for hardening purposes)
9. Repeat 7 & 8 a few times. If you did it too much the metal would become brittle and break easily. If you didn't do it enough it would be weak and get malformed easily.
9B. Would the temperature you heat it too matter? I.E: If you heated it too long then it would weaken the metal, or even cause it to melt. If you didn't heat it enough then it wouldn't harden properly.
?: What would influence the quality of the metal?
?: Can you purify metal? I would speculate that purer metal (except for metal combinations like bronze / steel) would be better than impure metal. I would also speculate you can purify metal by repeatedly melting it down and letting it cool into bricks / sheets, then melting it down again.
?: Folding swords makes them stronger correct? This is done by repeatedly hitting one edge across onto the other edge and flattening it to a point?
If anyone can direct me to any resources related to this I'd appreciate it. I can't seem to find anything.
A few other random questions on the topic:
Are molds very definitive? I.E: If I have a mold for a sword, is it simply a long cubic shape or does it actually look like a sword.
Do different metals need to be heated / cooled differently to optimize hardness and efficiency? Or is it pretty much the same across all commonly used weapon metals.
ID:151663
 Sep 23 2009, 7:23 pm (Edited on Sep 23 2009, 7:34 pm)
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Sep 23 2009, 8:11 pm
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Popisfizzy
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A good rule of thumb: Don't make something complex for complexity's sake. If it's complex and interesting (For example, a rule-based system where different combinations can naturally be produced without hardcoding them) then go for it. If not, the simpler stuff is probably better.
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The mold is simply supposed to result in a metal bar, and this bar is what you heat and mack with a hammer. In addition, there's a direct correlation between blade hardness to brittleness. Blades that don't flex to some degree will break easily, but one that isn't strong enough will warp out of shape.
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Don't forget folding the metal for the actual blade itself. Such ain intricate system is not only too complex but more work then gameplay. It all sounds good in concept, but the programming is more trouble than its worth to me (i'm not a good programmer). For example I wanted to add ranged weapons to my game, even with all the resources it was more work and added a different depth to the game that I am not sure fit. Sometimes people want to play a game, not work in a game. Another example is the fact that I hardly use complex crafting systems in games (FF11 - not that complex but more than I care to do).
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Mobius Evalon wrote:
The mold is simply supposed to result in a metal bar, and this bar is what you heat and mack with a hammer. In addition, there's a direct correlation between blade hardness to brittleness. Blades that don't flex to some degree will break easily, but one that isn't strong enough will warp out of shape. <font color=yellow>This was a big question I had. Well, rather, they were all big questions I had. Ty for the info. :) </font> Popisfizzy wrote: A good rule of thumb: Don't make something complex for complexity's sake. If it's complex and interesting (For example, a rule-based system where different combinations can naturally be produced without hardcoding them) then go for it. If not, the simpler stuff is probably better. <font color=yellow>A very good sentiment. One I thoroughly took to heart before beginning my research on this specific topic. From talking with a variety of gamers, varying from hardcore to casual, they general consensus is as follows: A more complex system than currently offered in games would be greatly preferred. An overly complex system (such as having to time how long you heat the metal for the right temperature, or extremely complex measures such as that) would be annoying and strongly avoided. As such, I've come to the following conclusion: Add more complexity to the process, such as more steps to creating the product, but keep it simple and easy to do, so that anyone could do it without paying attention or trying. </font> UmbrousSoul wrote: Such ain intricate system is not only too complex but more work then gameplay. <font color=yellow>Addressed above. Increased complexity while maintaining simplicity. :) </font> It all sounds good in concept, but the programming is more trouble than its worth to me (i'm not a good programmer). Sometimes people want to play a game, not work in a game.<font color=yellow> For me this actually isn't difficult to program at all. Much of the time your experience in programming merely gives you more mental options on ways to approach problems, even if you had the knowledge to do it all along. ****** The point behind all this is I'd like to gather as much knowledge as possible before programming any specific trade skill, to make it as life-like as possible. When I say life-like I don't necessary mean the complexity of the real process. If I did that I'd never even finish programming blacksmithing, let alone any other trade skills. I refer more to the steps to produce the result, leaving most of the middle ground up to your skill in any said trade. </font> | |
Metallurgy is a rather complex subset of chemistry, since its reaching its full capabilities would indicate that we truly understood the strong and weak interactions that manage to yield astonishing and most unexpected results in these macro clusters.
I'd have to ask, are we talking about the alchemy like blacksmithing you encountered some centuries ago, when a sword was still a formidable choice of arms, or are we talking about modern rafting here? As for a quick introduction on the topic, you might even find some information on the Wikipedia article on the subject http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy, since it answers some of your questions, such as heat treatment and it's general effect. AJX wrote: What I want to know if what is REAL blacksmithing like? What are the actual steps that go into making a sword? Armor? Actually, this involved a lot of 'secret knowledge', since the quality of the product depends on the treatment both of the ore, as well as of the metal. The process of smelting is not as simple as you think and can be used to alter the attributes of your metal bar. One of the main points is the carbon 'concentration' (sorry, I only learned the German terms, so I might actually stumble here and there). AJX wrote: 8. Rapidly cool the metal in water (for hardening purposes) This is a step that seems simple, but is more tricky than you'd guess and I'll use it as example. No good smith will ever use 'normal water', but salt-water (is this a proper English term?), or oil-water, or a combination, depending on the required results. As for your questions, yes, heat treatment matters and is very complex. The quality of the metal, or better it's attributes, depend on a lot more than I could list here. Yes, you can purify metal, even to a rather large degree, like in the zone melting(Czochralski process), that is used to purify silicium, but in 'normal blacksmithing', you normally used chemical ingredients for purification. Unfortunately, pure does not mean 'better', as you even mentioned yourself with hinting at steel. (Unfortunately, because it would be easier than the trial and error metallurgy still uses ;)) | |
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
Metallurgy is a rather complex subset of chemistry, since its reaching its full capabilities would indicate that we truly understood the strong and weak interactions that manage to yield astonishing and most unexpected results in these macro clusters. How are the strong and weak force of relevance here? They have little effect outside the nucleus, so unless metallurgy involves some sort of fusion, it's irrelevant. I mean, radioactive decay will probably happen occasionally, but that's of little note on the whole. | |
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
I'd have to ask, are we talking about the alchemy like blacksmithing you encountered some centuries ago, when a sword was still a formidable choice of arms, or are we talking about modern rafting here? <font color=yellow> Back in the day. :) Fantasy setting, where the weapons made from forging will be the most commonly used means of beating the hell out of someone you don't like. </font> As for a quick introduction on the topic, you might even find some information on the Wikipedia article on the subject http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy, since it answers some of your questions, such as heat treatment and it's general effect. <font color=yellow>Ah! This has a lot of information and links to pages with even more that I was looking for. I believe you solved my problems. I'll have to spend more time looking through it all, but I think I'll find what I need there. </font> AJX wrote: <font color=yellow>Concentration or content would work fine in context you're using. </font> AJX wrote: <font color=yellow> Yes, salt-water is appropriate again. Do you have any hints as to what properties salt water vs oil water vs water...water would have in this situation? Or it is just something they did because they did it. Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.</font> Popisfizzy wrote: How are the strong and weak force of relevance here? They have little effect outside the nucleus, so unless metallurgy involves some sort of fusion, it's irrelevant. I mean, radioactive decay will probably happen occasionally, but that's of little note on the whole. <font color=yellow> You guys lost me here. </font> | |
If you want to know about Blacksmithing, you'd have to specify what you mean by "Blacksmithing".
Blacksmithing, and Bladesmithing are two different things, ever heard of Whitesmithing? Bladesmithing is an incredibly detailed process, and more often than not, it is different depending on which part of the world you look at. You would literally have to ask a Blacksmith about how the process goes. Because they literally use hundreds of tools, and just as many techniques to forge stuff. Not only that, but if you even want to attempt to make a sword, you have to know what a sword is, and how it works. (There is actually fairly complex physics and geometry behind the shape of a swords blade). To be honest, you'd be better off using a simple system if you intend on adding Blacksmithing to your game. As for your questions. 1. More often than not "quality of metal" is defined by it's carbon content. Metal with less carbon is softer, but more durable. Metal with higher carbon content is harder, but more fragile. (similar to comparing play dough to glass, but that is an extreme example). 2. Again, metal purity is all down to carbon content. Different carbon content metals are used for different parts of a blade. It spine of a blade might be made of softer, but more durable metal to stop it from simply shattering. But the edge might be made of a harder, more brittle metal so it can be made sharp. 3. Folding metal only makes it stronger upto a certain point. As for folding metal, it is basically flattened out, folded in half, then forge-welded together. | |
The Magic Man wrote:
(There is actually fairly complex physics and geometry behind the shape of a swords blade). Indeed, for example. The european long swords and broadswords were better for stabbing because the edge of the blade is not designed for slicing, like that of a katana. Not only the quality of materials used, but how they are worked will give a different result. If one step is done wrong it can be chaos and the blade can crack. There are many different designs for weapons, many different materials, and many different methods of making them. Simple, effective, and fun is the best bet. Don't make something too complex. | |
No, I am not talking about common knowledge. Like a pointy sword is good for stabbing, but a sharp one is good for slashing.
I am talking about things like center of precussion. When you swing a sword and it hits something, the sword vibrates (a vibrating sword is less effective at cutting, and more uncomfortable to swing around). All swords have a "sweet spot" where vibration is at a minimum. This depends on the size, shape and density of the blade. A good bladesmith will know what this is, and depending on the weapon and person intended to use it, be able to manipulate where this sweet spot is. Other things like weight distribution and center of balance play an important role, so do it's distal taper and profile taper. Even the blades cross section shape is important. All these things contribute to a blade, it's quality and how good it feels to use, which in turn defines how it is ideally used. | |
Couple things, folding the metal over and over results in what is called Damascus Steel(Damascus for the first place it was made)and I wouldn't recommend going for realism in this, it takes roughly 5000 or more folds to make a good blade out of it.
Water VS. Oil: Oil cools steel slower than water, so in the case of a thin blade if you used water you would have a higher chance of cracking or breaking the blade. Sometimes its desirable to use oil and water together, cooling slowly at first and then using water to finish it off. Side note: They made shotgun barrels out of Damascus Steel for a while, then when they started getting older the had a bad tendency to 'splode in your face. | |
None of that is true.
No one knows what true "Damascus Steel" is. Most people think it is some form of Wootz Steel, which is made using charcoal and glass. Folding metal just gives it a more fine grained, and uniform microstructure. But as I said, folding it too much is detrimental to the quality of the metal. Most Katanas are folded between 12 and 16 times (never more than 16 times). As for Water vs Oil quenching. This depends entirely on the metal. Some work best with oil, some with water. You'd have to ask an expect for what is best used with what. Man, I hate living in a town where the majority of people work in, around or with steel. | |
I'm sorry, what I was refering to is actually called Pattern welded "Damascened" steel, which is now commonly referred to as Damascus steel. Pardon me for trusting PBS.
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AJX wrote:
If anyone can direct me to any resources related to this I'd appreciate it. I can't seem to find anything. Btw. finding material on the subject is not that tricky. Just as an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l2PbvBeGkE The problem to me would be more on the fact that there is such a variety of 'habits' in blacksmithing, that I doubt your average player wants to bother with content worth multiple books. If you offer a more detailed choice, such as adding certain bonus attributes (combined with some disadvantages), I think that's a nice way. But don't push it too far. | |
"Modern Damascus is a lamination of folded steels selected with cosmetic qualities, with grinding and polishing specifically to expose the layers. "
Read and think before you post. More: "True Damascus patterns are formed when carbon trace elements form visible swirls in the steel mix.[citation needed] These elements change properties when the steel is work hardened (forged), creating the patterns" | |