A.T.H.K wrote:

This argument is just going around and around, in the end realistically only the "creator" should have access to the whole source no one else, if they decide to give it our for any reason they should expect the source to be leaked end of story.

Your argument of artists needing the source is just ridiculous but you're free to give out your source to them if you need just heed the words above... It will be leaked.

I'm in agreement with ATHK here. I work as a sort of hybrid artist/programmer, and the way I work absolutely requires me to have access to both the entire source code, and the entire list of art assets.

Why? Because the way I implement systems requires the art to be organized in the DMI files in a particular way. I shouldn't have to explain to the artists that the shields need to be split into under and over states, I shouldn't have to explain to an artist that the arrow stick glitz effects need to be positioned in a particular manner.

I give the artist a job, and I expect them to give it to me in a sprite sheet, that I later import and process myself. I give the environment artists a job, and they don't need the source code of the project, just prototype stubbs and an understanding of what types of objects need to go where, and when something needs to be a /turf/blockage and when something needs to be a /turf/elevationchange.

In the end, I don't like paying my artists more than I have to, so I want to make sure we have a clear outlined goal of what needs doing, what assets need generated, and exactly the sort of style and overall goal I expect. However, I'm also working with an artist. If I am paying them to put lines on paper, I'm also going to be paying them to be creative. If they can't read my "fluff" outline, and look at my base concept sketches and improve them with the final product? I don't want to work with them. If they can't keep the palette rules in mind, and can't avoid using 300 colors in a single gradient, I don't want to work with them. If they can't keep my explicit size/scale rules in mind, I don't want to work with them.

However, there is always room for creativity, and I will always gladly welcome asking why, as well as attempting to experiment a bit with an effect that just looks cool. But at the end of the day, if I'm giving my artists SVN access and expecting them to implement their own animations and whatnot into the right object prototypes, and expecting them to set up the animations properly, there's something seriously wrong with my priorities.

Testing projectiles doesn't require source code access. If you can't animate without seeing it in action, you really shouldn't be animating.

Lone wolfing is obviously the way to go. Anyone who wants to toss some help here and there is welcomed but be repaired to do everything yourself.

While you shouldn't be afraid to share your code you shouldn't be tossing it out to everyone just cause.

I guess we were speaking of two different environments. My point was aimed towards the more common on this site: hobby development with friends, where it's not entirely business. I understand where you're coming from, though.

Pirion wrote:

I think the comment Howey made is actually insulting, and I write code only (though I wish I could make art).

When you have someone join you in a project, it should be open for ideas from any team member. These people aren't donating time to your project, they are becoming part of it themselves.

I get the general conscientious that the programmer manages the code...when it comes down to it, programmers are control freaks, myself included, but you also need to understand that there are people that can do more than one task. (The world isn't limited to a single skill tree)

Those are the ones that are truly amazing, and the comments in this post outline the mentality difference between thinking like a programmer and thinking like an engineer pretty well.

And that'll be the reason why after 9 years I've still not released a game? No that's not it, I've worked in teams and other ways to try get a project released, always failed.

I don't know why you found it insulting though, it's simply a personal preference to want to make a game I want to make, then take suggestions once I've made what I wanted to. Infact since I've tried it this way (Not taking suggestions) I've actually got something playable. Sure the icons are place-holder icons so I can't open the game, but that's fine by me at this point.

I simply don't work well when everyone is inputting ideas, having continuous changes in the game design. I'd rather get a playable game, then make changes once it's playable. Find more games to be released that way, good or bad.

I'm not trying to be rude but I find it interesting how most of the people that go around giving advice about how to make a game and how to approach its development, most of them haven't accomplished this task. I don't know why anyone would actually listen. I'm not just referring to this thread but every time something game-development related pops up on the forums, you see the same know-it-alls.

Cubanbling wrote:

I'm not trying to be rude

Yet you are doing exactly that.

You know what else is funny? Every time I hand out advice, nobody listens, and nobody bothers bring up valid arguments against it, except to resort to personal attacks.

Again, though, I don't make games. I write code, I dabble in art, and I teach. I have very little interest in actually making games.

EDIT: Even so, Cuban, I think you are right. I'm done trying to help the community. Even though I got nothing out of it, I did spend a lot of my time doing it. But the fact is, more people have appreciated it than not, and even so, those who do not appreciate it out of some misplaced ego trip have more than made it a little annoying to carry on doing.

That's it for me. No more. No more advice, no more help, just gonna focus on myself and my contracts from here on. Thanks for letting me know that trying to help people was a complete waste of time.

Whoa, whoa. This thread transformed from what was seemingly a good discussion into an emotional playground. What's going on?

It's not your comment. It's the toxicity of the majority of the attitudes of this community and the continual utter lack of competence amongst the forum users who claim superiority over those who clearly demonstrate stronger understanding of concepts regardless of credential.

In the end there is a poisonous core of truly hateful people around here who should have left years ago, and in not doing so have been left to fester in their discontent, chasing away the competent users and shunning any fresh breath from on high. The end result of this attitude being prevalent has led to an endless tirade of infighting, pointless bickering and day after day more and more people have less and less actual merit to pull from posts because people like you, Cuban, have felt the need to demonstrate their own superiority over others who have done more to help the problem than you could ever claim.

I have for the last year attempted to challenge the notion that the software is to blame, that Tom isn't doing enough, that the site is the problem. You are a microcosm of the problem Cuban, and other users like yourself who have become increasingly derisive, only ever posting to insult and undermine. All the while doing so under the assumption that you are the most competent person in the room.

I think, my depth of understanding and the merit to what I have had to say would stand in any professional discussion on the subject of game design, marketing, and organizational workflow. Yeah, you are right, I don't do what I am willing to talk about, but contradict me based on my content of argument and not the content of my character. Doing what you are doing is cowardly, derisive, and unproductive.

Sure though, I will let you win this one. I am done with this community. I am sick and tired of people like you and I am sick to death of hearing you people go on and on about all these rancid games and practices that persist in this community as a matter of the status quo.

I'm just sick to death of hearing you people go after each other day after day in your piety feuds and squabbles and I am fed up with hearing you people bully Tom and the moderators over every single inane idea you have.

I'm at a point where the joy of teaching this stuff has been sucked out of me by the combination of well intended incompetence and malicious self aggrandizing via bullying.

It's just old, Cuban, and by far, three users in 14 years I have spent here have rubbed me the wrong way to the point of flat out questioning why it is that I do what I do. You, fallacy and galactic soldier.

As long as your attitude is what it is, any community that will have you is worse for it, Cuban, and the users like you, who carry on like you do, bringing everyone else around them down instead of just moving on from a community you really genuinely seem to hate to a point of actively spending your time lurking and insulting everyone else, we'll, frankly you guys are too numerous and vocal these days to continue justifying subjecting myself to.

I'm not done with programming. I'm just done with interacting with you people anymore. And for the record, the software is the only good thing about this site, along with the developers and most of the moderators. The rest is poisoned by people like you and a core of dedicated users whose behavior can best be described as crippling inferiority masked by a false ego.

I'm sorry to butt in like this, i just wanted to say that I appreciate what you've been doing Ter. You haven't helped me directly but I've learned and I'm sure others as well, from your insights, concurrent explanations and posts. There's more to game developing than making a game. You're obviously very capable and can contribute alot more than what someone like me could do so( I have actually made a couple crappy games).

I haven't been around for too long, I don't know where all the toxicity comes from, but I like using this engine. All i care is to make dumb video games after all, it works for me just fine.

Don't let the negativity bring you down, I'm certain the community is far worse without users like you, who actually care and try to be supportive.