On 6/5/01 1:28 am FIREking wrote:

I am making a game with extreme violence, and carrying a mature rating,
can i do this in the byond community with a user agreement disclaimer before playing the game, click agree allows you to play after you have read the statement, and clicking disagree exits the game

if i can do this, or if you require more for me to do this, just reply

Sounds fair to me.

If the disclaimers you've put elsewhere on this board are any indication, Jobe, then writing them really isn't your forte... I'm sure they're fun to write, but if you think they mean anything, legally, you're wrong. For one thing, your English skills aren't the best... which is okay for day-to-day stuff, but when it comes to legal matters, "well, I know what I mean" doesn't quite cut it.

But, luckily for you and FireKing, disclaimers aren't really necessary. Dan and Tom are the only regulatory body that oversees BYOND games, and they don't seem too inclined to impose limitations on us. There is a rating system for electronic games, but it's voluntary. Anyone who downloads your game or logs onto it is taking responsibility for playing it. If you a) feel the need to include a disclaimer, and b) want it to have some force, keep it simple and just remind people of that fact. Don't throw around a lot of big fancy words or double-talk. If you can't prove what the disclaimer really means, or that it's even serious, then in the unlikely event of a lawsuit, the disclaimer won't help anything.

On 6/5/01 8:32 am jobe wrote:

On 6/5/01 1:28 am FIREking wrote:

I am making a game with extreme violence, and carrying a mature rating,
can i do this in the byond community with a user agreement disclaimer before playing the game, click agree allows you to play after you have read the statement, and clicking disagree exits the game

if i can do this, or if you require more for me to do this, just reply

thanks
<font color=red><x><</x></font><font color=orange><x>^</x></font><font color=yellow><x>></x></font><font color=darkred>F</font><font color=red>I</font><font color=orange>R</font><font color=yellow>E</font><font color=yellow>K</font><font color=orange>I</font><font color=red>N</font><font color=darkred>G</font><font color=yellow><x><</x></font><font color=orange><x>^</x></font><font color=red><x>></x></font>

hey! can i write your disclaimer? PLEASE?!?!?! i love writeing disclaimers... i can make you void of every charge you can have... realy.

I wasn't going to say anything about that... I get bogged down in enough arguments here as it is. :) But since someone brought it up, and since we're talking about disclaimers, let me make a pre-emptive strike... there is NO disclaimer you can write that will make using copyrighted material in your game legal.

Also, perhaps more applicable around here, violating copyright can be an issue, and one that I wouldn't be surprised if Dantom has to crack down on at some point. If their hub system is used to distribute copyright violations they could get in trouble. See Napster.

In which case, it will already by legal to do so, and no disclaimer will have made it so. :P

On 6/5/01 10:24 am Gughunter wrote:

there is NO disclaimer you can write that will make using copyrighted material in your game legal.

Unless it's your own copyrighted material, of course. :)

"But it's not a rip-off, Shadowdarke... it's a well-intentioned homage, and besides, I'm not making any money, and aside from the graphics, characters, plotlines, and music, everything in the game is completely original."

Steve Jackson Games has a great article on intellectual property and fair use at their website, http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html Some of the material there relates to their specific policy, but a lot of it is speaking in general. In particular, Part IV (Notices and Disclaimers) applies. To summarize for those not inclined to go reading articles, the purpose of a "copyright disclaimer" isn't to let the people who own the copyright know that you intend no harm and thus can't be sued, it is to let other fans know that your creation is not "official", which lessens the chances that you will be sued... because if you are sued, it will be successful.

Before anyone talks about how mean-spirited the big corporations that own these properties are, I'd like to point out that a copyright or trademark can be invalidated if the owner doesn't aggressively protect it. That is, if I own the copyright for KablooieQuest, but I let everyone and their sibling make their own KablooieQuest merchandise freely, I can't later move in and shut down or take over all the KablooieQuest-related companies that have sprung up. KablooieQuest will have become part of the public domain. If you don't post a disclaimer that your work isn't official, then the company who owns the property has no choice but to go after you or watch their own rights erode. If you do post a disclaimer... well, it's still the owner's choice. If they didn't get that choice, then a copyright would be worthless in the first place.

Again, before anyone talks about how unfair this all is... remember, this is a creative community. We are all engaged in creative ventures. Long term, big picture, intellectual property laws are our friends. Even if you don't ever plan to make money from your creations... if there were no intellectual property laws, nothing would stop me or anyone else from taking your game, copying it, and selling it. Wouldn't hurt you any, but is it fair that I make money from your hard work?

There's also a side benefit: these laws don't stifle creativity, they encourage it. Yeah, I know... Dragon Ball Z is the greatest thing since moldy bread... but instead of merely copying your favorite game, why don't you be inspired by it, inspired to create the NEXT Dragon Ball Z? But for the love of Amandain's Eldritch Dagger, don't call it Dragon Ball Z 2! I'm not talking about a sequel, I'm talking about reducing DBZ to its most basic concepts (like, dumbing down Japanese cartoons, games, and toys, then repackaging them for an American market?) and then creating your own interpretation. This is originality. You might not think you can ever make something as cool as your favorite game/setting, but you have to remember... someone had to make it to begin with. Obviously, it can be done.

On 6/5/01 11:38 am Shadowdarke wrote:

On 6/5/01 10:16 am LexyBitch wrote:

I wasn't going to say anything about that...

I hear that, Lexy! People get very aggravated defending their piracy.

there is NO disclaimer you can write that will make using copyrighted material in your game legal.

Be careful, people. Square in particular gets really touchy about people ripping them off.

Does anyone know a good site where I can get public domain midis that are worth listening too?

I wouldn't be surprised if Dantom has to crack down on at some point.

I guess that will clear up the DBZ discussion too.

You missed one possible source of damages: if you used their copyrighted material in a defamatory way. Thin line here... you have the right to parody, but not to libel. Also, "the most you can be accountable for" can be quite a lot, if you try to play hardball with a big company. Remember, there's monetary damages, and there's punitive damages... they'll probably ask for both. As far as the actual monetary value... remember, any illegal use of an intellectual property represents a threat to or erosion of that intellectual property. Believe it or not, but big companies like to believe that they can calculate the value of such things. :)

Also, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't believe a court order is required before they can sue for damages. They probably only have to prove that you knew the work was copyrighted... which would be why the first thing their lawyers do is send you a letter explaining that the material is copyrighted and asking you to stop. That way, when they take you to court, they'll have evidence that you A) knew about the copyright and B) pointedly ignored it.

Final note: big companies have big lawyers. Little designers don't. It doesn't matter if their points are pointless and their cases wouldn't hold water... the fact is that if they get their cases and points before a judge, you'll need a lawyer to get them thrown out... and if you get into a lawyer-hiring contest with a big company, guess who'll run out of money first?


On 6/5/01 12:31 pm Leftley wrote:

Now, a question. It's my conception of the way this whole thing works in the legal system that, should you produce a game or other product that uses copyrighted material extensively, then the most you can be held accountable for by the copyright holder is the value of whatever money you make from the product (nothing, if it's free), and following whatever restrictions on distribution they ask (which would include asking you to stop distributing it entirely.) There are two exceptions where you might be in more trouble: If the copyright holder can prove some other monetary damages (such as if you were distributing a product in very close competition to one they were selling, using their same material), and also if they go to court and get a court order telling you to stop distributing your product and you ignore it, in which case you're commiting contempt of court.

For the most part I'm just curious. I slept a lot in Business Law class, so I kinda missed a few details.

i can do it. and i have one made. in fact the dsclaimer i had made is what is keeping half of the star wars gameing comunity alive. the disclaimer sytated that these games were free of charge (like so meany other star wars MUDs LA desided to let go..). and the star wars copywrite now states that any game that is free and gives credit to the creators of star wars will not be sued.. or something to that point. so i simply chagred for server acsess(witch included everything on that server and not just that game) and offered the exact same game on a free(but much slower) server to prove it was a free game.. so the thing is i was not chargeing for the game i was chargeing for the bandwith used for ANYTHING on that server.. soon after that i got a letter from LA and i sent them my disclaimer.. witch simply stated this (i had that one made..). so there are ways to charge for free metirial(just make sure it is leagle to make a free version first..)

On 6/5/01 10:16 am LexyBitch wrote:

there is NO disclaimer you can write that will make using copyrighted material in your game legal.

jobe, if what you're doing is legal--and from reading this, I think it's into a grey area, but I'm not exactly a lawyer--then it is legal not because of your disclaimer, but because the holders of the Star Wars copyright, according to you, have it THEIR policy that games and services that operate free-of-charge can use the material.

The point of my example is that none of that stuff... posting the blueprints, or having a free version of the park... makes the pay version of the park legal. It is still and always will be patently illegal. Now, look at my example, and change "theme park" back to "server." The fact is, it doesn't matter what the medium is... the same rules apply. What you are doing is illegal. You think you've found a clever way to get around the law, but if that clever little way actually worked, everyone would do it, and there would be (for instance) Disney Worlds all over the place.

There's reason lawyers go to law school, Jobe. Even the cleverest of us little boys and girls will never "outsmart" the law, except by sheer luck. Your Star Wars game is under the radar for now. If you're sure it's legal, don't tell me about it... send Lucas Arts a letter of inquiry, telling them exactly what you've told us, asking them if what you're doing with the pay server is legal.

On 6/5/01 3:51 pm jobe wrote:

well useing your example i would have another star wars park outside free of charge.. the thing is i cant garentee how good the peaple who run the rides would be.. becase there not on the payroll.. so the lines will be longer.. but you can still ride them free! and i would have the blueprints of that park in a public place...(but i dont have to advertize you can make your own)

as i said i have a free copy of the game running but on a server that dose not need as much money put into it.. i also have the source code for the game on some god abandoned free server and the page on one search engin..(but now with the search shairing engins i fear some more peaple will find it...)

On 6/5/01 1:17 pm LexyBitch wrote:

It's not because of your disclaimer, it's because of the copyright owner's choice not to pursue "free-of-charge" violators. Your disclaimer is nice, but it means nothing, legally. Star Wars (and Star Trek, for that matter) are what we call "fan-driven"... that is, they've been kept alive for decades by fan interest, and the owners and creators of SW and ST have acted to reward the fans by keeping a relatively loose leash on their properties. You put the same disclaimer on your Final Fantasy or Super Mario game, and you'll have SquareSoft and Nintendo knocking on your door the moment they become aware of it.

Final note: by charging for server access, you run the risk of "ruining it for everybody." The thing is, "as long as you don't make any money off it" is a pretty vague legal area, and there's more precise ways to describe it, but there's always loopholes, as you yourself demonstrate. So when a company includes something like that in its terms and conditions or official policy or whatever, they're basing it on a good faith agreement between the fan community and the company. If a bunch of people like yourself exploit that good faith, Lucas Arts may conclude that there's no good way for them to serve the fans' interests and their own at the same time.

As for the legality of charging for server access... think of it this way. What if you made a theme park? What if you put a "Star Wars Land" in it, complete with characters, sound effects, likenesses, all that. Of course it would be illegal for you to make money off it. But what if you said, "I'm not charging money for people to see the Star Wars characters, I'm charging money to get into the park, where there's also other stuff." It's an argument that simply doesn't hold water.

On 6/5/01 12:59 pm jobe wrote:

On 6/5/01 10:16 am LexyBitch wrote:

there is NO disclaimer you can write that will make using copyrighted material in your game legal.

On 6/5/01 4:37 pm FIREking wrote:

thanks tom
finally someone answered the original question
no offense to anyone, but i know how posts can be

Actually, Tom's post was first. =)