Will Byond ever.....

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Apr 15 2002, 6:52 pm
In response to Shadowdarke
Shadowdarke wrote:
None that come even close to BYOND. Most that I've seen are just libraries and tools that expand on C++.

dont take this personal or anything

but thats how you program a 3d game, in a WIN32 Programming Language, such as C++.

and to get a 3d game up and running, youll need a 3d graphics api, such as open gl or direct x. and if you are too lazy to use those(which is very very time consuming, "reinventing the wheel"), then find a good solid 3d engine.

Seriously, go to www.yahoo.com and search for 3d Engines, youll find just about everyone that exists.

FIREking
Apr 15 2002, 7:01 pm
In response to Gughunter
Gughunter wrote:
But 3D models and textures are many times larger than dmi files, so resources couldn't be sent on the fly as they currently are.

Well, that's true, but the "on-the-fly" model is inappropriate for many existing BYOND games as well.

actually, there are several 3d engines, designed for html pages only that stream the data to the user, and ive played one of those games. It only took about 1 minute or so to get all the files on my 56k modem, and boom i was playing a 3d game right in a html page.

http://www.wildtangent.com

http://www.shout3d.com (older)

Also, 3D maps are much much more complex than 2D tiled maps, since they don't use tiles.

These would! The terrain would just be a grid of several 3D models.

actually, terrain maps of today's games just use a crap load of numbers and some commas. Each series of numbers completes a 3 numbered vertex(x,y,z) in 3d space. Using byond to do this sort of work is nearly impossible. The rendering cycle would be horrible and would probably take around 10 - 50 seconds to process, too slow for 3d.

There'd have to be an entirely new aspect of the language to represent textures for walls and such, which would take the place of turfs, which are no longer useful.

Maybe there's a 3D format in which the textures can be saved with the model information. That's what I had in mind.

there are several 3d formats that do just that, in fact quake 1 comes to mind when the maps had all texture data and files stored right in the map file. but thats been proven to be very bad and awful(maps become around 3 megs or larger). The idea is to get all the files the game will use onto the computer, then simply reference them and display them to the user from the computer's hard drive.

And the map maker would have to be entirely rewritten.. and 3D map-makers aren't trivial projects.

The map editor could still use 2D icons for the kind of thing I had in mind -- or it could even display the object's "text" value instead of an icon.

ok this will require a bit of explaining

when using the "i will place 2d icons in this map editor which will represent 3d models on the game" method is good, but not exactley the best method. Reason why is because constructing a world of static 3d models represented by 2d icons will get very "default" like. What if you want a wall to be 1 pixel over to the left instead of exactley snapped to the grid(this happens alot folks), you wont be able to define such minute detail. Having the ability to use brushes that can have any x,y,z value for each vertex point of the shape really defines how 3d games look so good today.

ok im tired of rambling,
FIREking
Apr 15 2002, 7:01 pm
In response to Alathon
Alathon wrote:
Lord of Water wrote:
I think you're asking, is anyone going to eventually build a library capable of making 3-D graphics rendering easier with BYOND. My answer would be, eventually! As BYOND gets more capable and lagless, more people will be messing with 3-d!

I don't believe it will be possible to simulate a full 3-D environment, not with the current engine BYOND is using. Pseudo-3D is entirely possible, however.

Alathon

exactly my point.

fireking
Apr 15 2002, 7:05 pm
In response to Foomer
Foomer wrote:
Not the way you're thinking of, no. Unless you want to build your own 3d engine on BYOND.

i dont want to start an argument, but its not possible to create a full and complete REAL 3d engine in the byond world. Even if someone did get something remotely 3d running, it would be psuedo 3d like doom 1 or wolfenstien 3d. processing all of the vertex points in the scene, as well as the textures/lighting/and moveing models in the scense would take at least 60 seconds in the byond environment.

FIREking
Apr 15 2002, 7:10 pm
In response to FIREking
Yeah, I personally think it's silly to take a program that was originally designed for building MUDs and try to build a 3D engine out of it. If you're going to go out of your way to build something like that, built it on a platform that can handle it better.

BYOND though, is capable of making some very nifty text-based MUDs :oD
Apr 15 2002, 8:27 pm
In response to FIREking
Unlike the "real" 3D you get in Quake 3 or Half-Life... I remember the time I accidentally stumbled into my monitor while playing that... my coffee mug is STILL at the bottom of the missile silo.

:P

I once saw a computer program that could model a 3D environment... it was controlling an injection molder. Any game you've played is "pseudo 3D."

As far as lighting effects go... that's pretty much beyond the scope of the conversation, which is "Could BYOND do 3D games?", not "Could BYOND make Quake 3?"
Apr 15 2002, 8:37 pm
In response to FIREking

Also, 3D maps are much much more complex than 2D tiled maps, since they don't use tiles.

These would! The terrain would just be a grid of several 3D models.

actually, terrain maps of today's games just use a crap load of numbers and some commas. Each series of numbers completes a 3 numbered vertex(x,y,z) in 3d space. Using byond to do this sort of work is nearly impossible. The rendering cycle would be horrible and would probably take around 10 - 50 seconds to process, too slow for 3d.

What Gug is talking about is what a 3D game made using BYOND would be like... not what the 3D games currently on the market are like. Your argument seems to be that BYOND shouldn't try to develop 3D techniques using its own engine because none of the games out now use those kinds of techniques, and that BYOND shouldn't use the techniques of the existing games because they wouldn't work with BYOND's engine. Way to argue in a circle!

when using the "i will place 2d icons in this map editor which will represent 3d models on the game" method is good, but not exactley the best method. Reason why is because constructing a world of static 3d models represented by 2d icons will get very "default" like. What if you want a wall to be 1 pixel over to the left instead of exactley snapped to the grid(this happens alot folks), you wont be able to define such minute detail. Having the ability to use brushes that can have any x,y,z value for each vertex point of the shape really defines how 3d games look so good today.

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. A 3D game in BYOND would most likely be tile-based, for the reason that BYOND itself is tile based. Same thing with a 2D game... you can make non-tile based games in BYOND (especially now, with the pixel offsets), but its main strength is and always be in tile games. If your 3D game is tile based, there wouldn't be as much reason to have things offset by a pixel. Consider Ultima Underworld II. It was no more "pseudo 3D" than Quake III (and, top to bottom, a much better game, but that's beside the point)... it tracked position and velocity along 3 axes. It was also more-or-less tile based. Also, there's the matter of scale. Is a wall represented by 1 tile, or by a series of tiles in a row? If the latter, worlds can end up being pretty irregular. Also, if you need to fine-tune things, no reason you can't set offsets in the instance editor. In the limited 3D mapping I've done before, I've often wished there was some happy medium between placing something with a brush tool and hand-writing in coordinates.

ok im tired of rambling

My horoscope did tell me I'd be getting good news today...
Apr 15 2002, 9:20 pm
In response to FIREking
FIREking wrote:
Shadowdarke wrote:
None that come even close to BYOND. Most that I've seen are just libraries and tools that expand on C++.

dont take this personal or anything

but thats how you program a 3d game, in a WIN32 Programming Language, such as C++.
everyone that exists.

He was referring to game creation tools, FIREking.

There are no game creation tools -- available for free download and use, even -- with a language as advanced or as intuitive as BYOND's that are capable of making three-dimensional games.

C++ is old school, unintuitive, complex, and above all else not a game creation tool; 3DRad is, well, 3DRad.
Apr 15 2002, 10:01 pm
In response to FIREking
FIREking wrote:
digitalmouse wrote:
Try these links:
http://www.the3dgamemaker.com/ - but not free
http://www.3drad.com/ - available in free and not-so-free versions, free version is nice to work with

ewwwwwwww,

no please dont try those, i will pay you money not to try those

These were just examples I had known - I don't see what the problem is with 3drad, or darkbasic - their just engines, and of course you need to lknow programming well to take good advantage of them...


Im telling you, if its free, its not good...

Sorry, but that is a load of horse-pucky... BYOND, Java, PHP... these and more are free and pretty danr good at what they do...
Apr 16 2002, 12:19 am
In response to Nadrew
3drad I tryed it.. too Hard.. it was Like learn a New thing a week.. i learn like somthing new everyday with byond.
Apr 17 2002, 4:28 am
In response to ShadowSiientx
True - the learning curve for 3drad is a bit steep - not for the 'casual' programmer. But I have seen some nicely done 3D environments that remind me alot of Quake2/3 worlds done with this development package - it *can* be done, and is certainly better for such things than BYOND (at this point at least)...
Apr 17 2002, 3:12 pm
In response to digitalmouse
digitalmouse wrote:
FIREking wrote:
digitalmouse wrote:
Try these links:
http://www.the3dgamemaker.com/ - but not free
http://www.3drad.com/ - available in free and not-so-free versions, free version is nice to work with

ewwwwwwww,

no please dont try those, i will pay you money not to try those

These were just examples I had known - I don't see what the problem is with 3drad, or darkbasic - their just engines, and of course you need to lknow programming well to take good advantage of them...


Im telling you, if its free, its not good...

Sorry, but that is a load of horse-pucky... BYOND, Java, PHP... these and more are free and pretty danr good at what they do...

apparently you have the wrong definition of IT is. I meant if its a Free 3d engine, then its not good...

ive tried many in my day

FIREking
Apr 17 2002, 3:14 pm
In response to Lesbian Assassin
Lesbian Assassin wrote:
Also, 3D maps are much much more complex than 2D tiled maps, since they don't use tiles.

These would! The terrain would just be a grid of several 3D models.

actually, terrain maps of today's games just use a crap load of numbers and some commas. Each series of numbers completes a 3 numbered vertex(x,y,z) in 3d space. Using byond to do this sort of work is nearly impossible. The rendering cycle would be horrible and would probably take around 10 - 50 seconds to process, too slow for 3d.

What Gug is talking about is what a 3D game made using BYOND would be like... not what the 3D games currently on the market are like. Your argument seems to be that BYOND shouldn't try to develop 3D techniques using its own engine because none of the games out now use those kinds of techniques, and that BYOND shouldn't use the techniques of the existing games because they wouldn't work with BYOND's engine. Way to argue in a circle!

when using the "i will place 2d icons in this map editor which will represent 3d models on the game" method is good, but not exactley the best method. Reason why is because constructing a world of static 3d models represented by 2d icons will get very "default" like. What if you want a wall to be 1 pixel over to the left instead of exactley snapped to the grid(this happens alot folks), you wont be able to define such minute detail. Having the ability to use brushes that can have any x,y,z value for each vertex point of the shape really defines how 3d games look so good today.

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. A 3D game in BYOND would most likely be tile-based, for the reason that BYOND itself is tile based. Same thing with a 2D game... you can make non-tile based games in BYOND (especially now, with the pixel offsets), but its main strength is and always be in tile games. If your 3D game is tile based, there wouldn't be as much reason to have things offset by a pixel. Consider Ultima Underworld II. It was no more "pseudo 3D" than Quake III (and, top to bottom, a much better game, but that's beside the point)... it tracked position and velocity along 3 axes. It was also more-or-less tile based. Also, there's the matter of scale. Is a wall represented by 1 tile, or by a series of tiles in a row? If the latter, worlds can end up being pretty irregular. Also, if you need to fine-tune things, no reason you can't set offsets in the instance editor. In the limited 3D mapping I've done before, I've often wished there was some happy medium between placing something with a brush tool and hand-writing in coordinates.

ok i see where you are coming from, i just dont want some of these kids to get starry eyed with the idea of a 3d game in byond. Because its just not going to be the spectacular things you see today in the latest 3d technology.

ok im tired of rambling

My horoscope did tell me I'd be getting good news today...

you really didnt need to add that...
Apr 17 2002, 3:19 pm
In response to Lesbian Assassin
Lesbian Assassin wrote:
Unlike the "real" 3D you get in Quake 3 or Half-Life... I remember the time I accidentally stumbled into my monitor while playing that... my coffee mug is STILL at the bottom of the missile silo.

:P

I once saw a computer program that could model a 3D environment... it was controlling an injection molder. Any game you've played is "pseudo 3D."

Real 3d Defined as Real 3d In a computing environment, where the 3d environment exists in binary format within the computer is displayed apon a 2d surface. Each point in the 3d space can be defined with 3 values as a vertex, and conneting to vertecies together will form a line, and connecting multiple lines together will form a plane or a polygon which can have a texture property applied. Each pixel of the texture is placed within the polygon with an algorithm and displayed. The rest of the environment, such as lighting, smoke, and special effects are overlayed on the scene, and the finaly 2d output is shown. This is what i mean by 3d. Byond could of course accomplish something like this, but nothing that would even compare with the most popular Direct X and Open GL Graphic API's.

As far as lighting effects go... that's pretty much beyond the scope of the conversation, which is "Could BYOND do 3D games?", not "Could BYOND make Quake 3?"

Actually, with no light in a 3d environment, its pitch black, look at the bottom of this page and you will see my new 3d game, without lighting....

FIREking
Apr 17 2002, 3:24 pm
In response to Spuzzum
Spuzzum wrote:
FIREking wrote:
Shadowdarke wrote:
None that come even close to BYOND. Most that I've seen are just libraries and tools that expand on C++.

dont take this personal or anything

but thats how you program a 3d game, in a WIN32 Programming Language, such as C++.
everyone that exists.

He was referring to game creation tools, FIREking.

There are no game creation tools -- available for free download and use, even -- with a language as advanced or as intuitive as BYOND's that are capable of making three-dimensional games.

C++ is old school, unintuitive, complex, and above all else not a game creation tool; 3DRad is, well, 3DRad.

There are plenty of 3d game creation tools, to bad that none of them are advanced as byond is with 2d. The best way to go with 3d game development, with low budget, is to find a engine, get a license to use it, and learn how to program the win32 api, and learn how to use the engine its self. Find your self a good solid language, and start putting it all together.

Hell, you can even drop by www.idsoftware.com and download the quake 2 source code. Modify it anyway you want, make all of your own media, and release a game for sale in the same year.

I seriously think that 3d game creation tools have come and gone and have failed. Of course something could always come along and shut me up, but i doubt that will be happeneing.... With the recent The 3d Game Maker, i was extremely dissapointed in finding that it was like rpg maker, in a pick and choose style of development. Go to the forums and read the stupid kids who ask questions like, "Can we add our own models!?". If you made your own game, you can add anything. Basically, I am disgusted with game creation tools, (considering that byond really isnt a game creation tool, but a game creation programming language and environment. Its nothing like the pitiful game creation tools of today that are on the mass market.)

FIREking
Apr 17 2002, 3:48 pm
In response to FIREking
How do you know it's the engines at fault, and not the engineer?
Apr 18 2002, 12:28 pm
In response to digitalmouse
I hate 3drad. Get A5 if your looking for 3d worlds. My friend and I detailed half our neighborhood with every single house that you can walk in to. We scripted our own enemies in 20 mins and i made 3 fully animated models in their nice free modeler.
Apr 19 2002, 3:11 pm
In response to Lesbian Assassin
Lesbian Assassin wrote:
How do you know it's the engines at fault, and not the engineer?

it is up to you to find the answer to that question your self....

go lesbian, the force is with you

FIREking
Apr 22 2002, 12:32 am
In response to Geo
I did something psuedo-3d by having a new Z var (can be anything, just not "z"). I then edited move so that an icon can enter a dense obect if it is not in the same Z level. This gives some interesting effects, like tunnels that only short people can enter, etc. You could do things like that before, but this way you can see that they physical don't fit.

the best part is this would work from an above-down or first-person view. (though first isn't as good of course)
Apr 22 2002, 4:35 pm
In response to JordanUl
JordanUl wrote:
I hate 3drad. Get A5 if your looking for 3d worlds. My friend and I detailed half our neighborhood with every single house that you can walk in to. We scripted our own enemies in 20 mins and i made 3 fully animated models in their nice free modeler.

i know that a5 its self is not free, but i was not aware of the modeler. What file formats does it support, and do you have a link with more information about it(the modeler)?

Thanks,
FIREking
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