Sure, too much clutter is bad. But not enough is just as bad.
Flysbads screenshot looks good mostly due to the art style. The map design however is not that great, and if you used another, less impressive looking art style, you'd see this.
The art style reminds me of a game called Wanderlust actually. Art styles that use solid colours are hard to make use of if you ask me, but look at how this game does it http://www.wanderlustgame.com/media.php
It's not the best but it definitely looks good.
Also, that screenshot you posted was taken from the map editor. In game it represents 4 actual screens. This is what it looks like in game http://i.imgur.com/TYr6H7D.jpg
I wont say it's the best looking screenshot ever. But it by no means looks bad, and looks better than the vast majority of screenshots I've seen of BYOND games (and probably all of them using these graphics).
It is not 100% accurate, but http://i.imgur.com/eeRAIcl.jpg you see the difference art style makes? Like I said in my first post, don't confuse good art with good maps.
Ah Ok. Well its actually quite annoying, for me personally, to see stuff like this because you really did escape about 50% of the work on the art / map side of things. For example, I've been developing the art style for two games for 1.5 years, and we are just now starting "cliffs". There is really A LOT of work involved in just the aesthetic side to a 2D game. When people use RPG Maker stuff, they get to skip all of that and get to the good stuff. Not saying RPG Maker graphics / or your maps are good or bad, just annoyed with my day-to-day involving tons and tons of art iteration while everyone else just settles for simply "not doing it".
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Sure, I agree with you. I don't want to use RPG Maker graphics, and if I didn't have to, I wouldn't. But not everyone is a capable artist, and these are much better than anything I could draw, and I do not have access to artists either.
I don't use them because I want to, infact, I want to get rid of them, but my art skills need some serious improvement. I'm using them because I have no other alternatives. | |
The Magic Man wrote:
I'm using them because I have no other alternatives. That's not true, you just don't want to pursue the alternatives. Which would be drawing them yourself or getting an artist to help you. It doesn't have to be on the level with "professional" production - that is, artists who get a real paycheck (rather than "1$ per icon"). But it does have to be nice to look at. Take a look at the game Aberoth:    Just look at those sprites! It's hard to get -much- simpler than that, I mean the hut in the first pic is probably one of the most involved pieces of artwork in the game. And the players have 8-directions with smooth animation, but come on they have one pixel thick limbs. But the game still manages to look good! The map design even disobeys some of the rules you were putting forth... and it's not a BYOND game! Believe it or not, people buy memberships for this game. I doubt the creator makes a shitload from it, but still - the point is that going DIY isn't going to completely kill your chances of people liking your game, just because your artwork isn't professionally done. | |
Magicsofa wrote:
To me, the worst part of this screenshot (well, this game's graphics in general) is that those icons for the rings and amulet are SO out of place. I'd be much happier looking at this if those icons were drawn in the same style as the rest of the game (obviously with a bit more detail, but still in that "8-bit" sort of look) Probably with a nice white one-pixel border to make them stand out. [Edit:] Didn't even notice the other screen icons (the bag and sword/knife/dagger down in the bottom right) But yeah; same applies. | |
I have actually tried drawing the graphics myself, the results were not satisfactory. I'm not going to say the screenshots you posted have bad graphics, but I do not like them and would not consider using them.
Also, drawing graphics takes a lot of time and effort. I'm way too lazy and need a hell of a lot of graphics. I have actually done some of the graphics myself, and edited others. http://i.imgur.com/yuOSi9W.png If you notice, half way through I started reusing a lot of graphics. That's because I'm no artist and have no patience for drawing a lot of graphics. | |
Well I don't know which ones you drew but those icons look really nice to me.
I know what you mean about the time it takes to draw. It can be arduous (just like writing code). I can't stop you from using free public artwork, but I just want to encourage you to use original graphics because I would personally rather see a unique style even if it's technically lower quality. | |
I'm not really disagreeing with any of the points made regarding map design, but just making a point that developers are obviously going to need to consider workload. When you use something like RPGMaker to design maps, you have thousands of tiles at your disposal. If a developer were to start from scratch, that's going to cost them a lot of money and a lot of time.
While Eternia's maps are pretty plain (something we're actively rectifying, step by step), that mainly comes down to budget...  To me personally, something like this, while it does have a lot of empty space, isn't visually displeasing. If we had the extra tiles to 'clean up' the area, we would. Sure, you could say that if that's the case, why not decrease the size of that specific area? Because like many areas in the game, it's where boss battles / quests take place, and these require space -- which I think should take priority over map appeal. | |
You have absolutely everything you need to make this map look better. And the majority of these changes would not effect the playability of the game.
That path I am assuming is a dirt path. Make it a little bit more jagged. That cliff to the side, make that jagged. The water, make it jagged. Maybe take the grass tile you have now, make it darker (similar to those plants) and use it has long grass to fill empty space. That is all it would take. | |
Doohl wrote:
Man, you just had to choose the most boring Eternia screenshot. That really does not reflect the majority of the game's mapwork! Though there are plenty of lackluster places, that screenshot is very much outdated and that area of the game does not exist anymore. I agree. This was kind of a biased point. I can do this with ANY game. Half-Life, Skyrim, Bioshock, Sleeping Dogs, Call of Duty, and literally every other game that exists all have points that are going to look boring. I do, agree, however, that players should NEVER, EVER see the same mapping format while walking in a straight line for more than 6 seconds. | |
You guys are taking the wrong approach to map design in this thread.
Map design transcends just "clutter" and "how open the map is". At the very very basic level, every map has an intended purpose in how the player(s) first enter the map, how the players traverse the map, how the players explore the map, how the players interact with the map, and even the impact the map has upon the player (graphically? contextually? pacing?) and ALL of this should reflect in its layout and design. It should never be just "oh it's big and open, I better put a bunch of random objects in to fill it up." There are plenty of situations where clutter is appropriate in a map, and plenty of situations where openness and emptiness is appropriate in a map. For example, this ChronoTrigger map can be considered to be big and open and empty. But that's completely appropriate given the context of the game, and the importance this map has in the story/gameplay. When I look at Eternia's maps, I don't see very much of these factors that drive the design. For example, for this map, what is the graphical impact that the map is supposed to induce within the player? How was the map as an experience designed? My critiques: The tileset is working against the map here. The dirt path edges are too square. The pool's edges are too square. A lot of the details in this tileset don't tile very well, and are very uniform and don't feel natural. It looks like this screenshot features the entrance/exit of a town or city? What is the tone that you're looking to establish for this city, and how does that contrast with the tone that you're looking to establish for the surrounding wilderness? When I look at that screenshot, there doesn't seem to be a designed induced response. Am I supposed to feel adventurous as I leave the city? Are the outskirts supposed to feel like a comfortable area? Is the grass supposed to be more well-kept inside the city vs outside? What purpose does that stone pillar serve? How do you think this should reflect in how the map is laid out and how the graphics work to accomplish this? I think you'll find that the problem of "poor aesthetics" or "clutter" or "emptiness" solves itself when you design a map with all of this stuff in consideration. | |
Those are some very good points and I agree that it's the way map design should be approached.
>What is the tone that you're looking to establish for this city, and how does that contrast with the tone that you're looking to establish for the surrounding wilderness? The area in question is the HQ of a guild that assists newbie adventurers and basically acts as rangers, patrolling nearby areas. Outside of the HQ is greenland prarie. I think that it's pretty difficult to induce the kind of emotional response I'd want and portray that through art with the limited amount of tilesets Eternia currently has. Maybe station a few NPC guards by the gate, that speak to the player before they're able to enter? Sure, there are improvements, but to do it at the standard of a commercial game -- like the Chrono Trigger example -- is a different ballgame. I agree with the general critiques (the path + pond), but when you get into deeper design, expect to invest a lot more time into art if every area is to be unique. The more detail, the longer, and in some cases, more expensive, things become. With Eternia's budget and the kind of world we wanted, it just isn't possible without being a little... shallow, in some parts? Regardless, I appreciate your advice and I'll be referring back to your post in the future when we remake the game world. | |
If you ask me, the best way to make an interesting map, is to give it a solid layout. If your map is designed in a good, interesting way, it will look good on it's own. You wont need to do much to make it better.
That ChronoTrigger map you posted, it has to my count about 3-4 grass tiles, and a longer grass tile. It's also not as open as it appears. The widest area at the bottom is 224 pixels wide, that is 7 32x32 tiles wide, and even that area is broken up with two different types of grass, several grass tiles and a shadow. When I say, open space I'm probably using a bad term here. What I mean is monotony should be avoided. Use different kinds of grass, make floor/wall tiles cracked, cliff faces can be different and so on. It's a silly rule and I don't agree with it, but some people say you should never have a 3x3 area that consists of nothing but 1 type of tile. Although open space is still very difficult to work with and hard to make good, and if possible you should avoid it. | |
I kind of skimmed over this thread a few times, and didn't know how to reply with out sounding like a dick- but the series of screenshots you posted did not look good. It was really clustered and visually distracting.
http://i.imgur.com/hG57IxU.jpg