I still believe that the forum should be altered to better direct new DM programmers to the appropriate forum.
Some ideas? One, alter the Newbie Central description to include the word "programming", or something similar. Two, Move the Newbie Central closer to the top of the list. More specifically, above Code Problems. I believe this would increase the chances that new programmers, who may also be new to the forum, will be directed there.
Who knows, this may save a few seconds of works from reaching the fingertips of our beloved moderators. :D
-Koshigia
ID:135693
 Apr 7 2004, 4:16 am
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Spuzzum wrote:
Not such a bad idea. We're also trying to look into ways to suggest that Newbie Central is for problems where you don't have any code (exempli gratia, how do I code a battle system?), whereas Code Problems is for problems where your existing code doesn't work (e.g., why doesn't my battle system work?). I like what it says in this page: http://developer.byond.com/forum/ index.cgi?action=forum_help#desc :) | |
Actually, if my memory of the forum rules text serves me correctly, I believe that the code problems section is not just for existing code that does not work despite what the majority may think. If I had a question such as "How should I go about making code for the minimax tree for my checkers artificial intelligence?" I think the text reguarding forum use specifies that would best go in the code problems section. I believe the idea that only posts containing code that has a problem should go in code problems is an idea that slowly emerged in the forum users' minds in much the same way rumors evolve, not knowing code design philosophy is indeed a code problem although one of a slightly different kind.
The text on forum use says that the newbie central is just that, a section for people to learn how to use Byond. If you want my oppinion on how the forum should work, I think that a question like the one I asked above should go into design philosophy. I have seen a few code design philosophy posts in that section, and I think that would be a good use for it. | |
I should probably mention that I'm the one who drafted the forum rules. That's also why there are at least four or five grammatical errors in it. =P
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Thank you Jon, that is the text I was referring to, though I could not remember where I saw it.
As you see, code problems is indeed for both errors/bugs and also for code design philosophy. Makes you wonder about all the posts in code problems that have been moved to newbie central (many of them should have gone in newbie central, yes, but many others were fine where they were [the reason for many of them being moved having been "you show no code"]) | |
How about:
Code Problems Ask for help with existing code that you're working on. BYOND How-To (formerly Newbie Central) If you're not sure how to do something with BYOND, ask here! Bumping it up closer to the top of the list might help too. | |
I like both of Mike H's descriptions, but I'd go a step further and swap some posts around. How-To could be the place for the code implementations currently discussed in Design Philosophy. (Design Philosophy could then be for discussing systems only rather than implementation.) Newbie Central questions about existing code could be moved to Code Problems (if they have not already).
As for how the help section defines what goes in Code Problems, it's wrong. I'm not saying that people should be screamed at for following the text. I'm saying the help section needs to be updated so that it matches the policies the staff uses. | |
I always thought they should be Basic Programming (for beginners) and Advanced Programming (for experienced users). But nobody's ever changed anything when I've tried to suggest it. :P
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Foomer wrote:
I always thought they should be Basic Programming (for beginners) and Advanced Programming (for experienced users). But nobody's ever changed anything when I've tried to suggest it. :P This is a nice idea, but "basic" vs. "advanced" is a somewhat arbitrary distinction. How do we make it? The problem, I think, is that the majority of BYOND-related posts in this forum boil down to code problems, whether they are phrased that way or not. Newbie-central questions like "how do I change the mouse pointer" are really just code problems in disguise. I also don't think the forum descriptions matter nearly as much as the names themselves. In that regard, I do like your suggestion over some of the others, since it at least requires some thought by the poster itself. I also think that the forum positioning is probably pretty significant, so moving the Newbie/Basics forum up would help (I've neglected this because I'm used the "general" forum being the most prominent). And we should probably rename "Q&A" to something more descriptive, since it, too, implies a place for programming assistance. It's supposed to be "Everything BYOND-related BUT programming assistance"! Maybe "About BYOND" ? Over the years, I think I've spent more time thinking about notational than content. Sad. | |
How about Code Troubleshooting instead of Code Problems? Troubleshooting implies that you are trying to work the kinks out of an existing system, whereas problems is pretty nebulous.
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Or rather, Dantom should remind the staff what is in the posting help file. Code problems is the logical place for both existing code with errors and bugs and for coding design philosophy. It just makes total sense to me, I don't understand why people want code help put in newbie central.
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Where in there does code design philosophy fit in? That has nothing to do with Byond how-to, but it is not a problem with existing code either - it is a problem with hypothetical code.
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Tom wrote:
And we should probably rename "Q&A" to something more descriptive, since it, too, implies a place for programming assistance. It's supposed to be "Everything BYOND-related BUT programming assistance"! Maybe "About BYOND" ? How about "BYOND Features"? It does tend to be a feature-request forum for the most part, or you can ask questions about or discuss existing BYOND features... | |
Loduwijk wrote:
Or rather, Dantom should remind the staff what is in the posting help file. Code problems is the logical place for both existing code with errors and bugs and for coding design philosophy. It just makes total sense to me, I don't understand why people want code help put in newbie central. Dantom does not need to remind the staff what is in the help files. The staff helped write them. The staff updated their views with experience and Dantom's approval. The forum help page is outdated. I'm sorry to harp on this, but the point I'm trying to make is that the staff members are indeed doing their jobs. They just can't argue with you because they helped build your expectations in the first place. That said, at this point I think the "existing code" policy exists just so Newbie Central has a purpose. Without the code rule, Newbie Central is just a place where elitists in the rest of forums will shove others. It's not like people have a party whenever someone introduces themselves (as the description suggests). PS: I've liked the idea of BYOND Features for Q&A too. | |
Loduwijk wrote:
Where in thre does code design philosophy? That has nothing to do with Byond how-to, but it is not a problem with existing code either - it is a problem with hypothetical code. What's wrong with the currently existing Design Philosophy forum? | |
As I said in another post, I think it would be great for coding design philosophy to go there. But for it to be the legit place to put code design philosophy, it should be said that change will be made as well. As it is, the design philosophy is not the official place for coding design philosophy.
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Newbie central would have a purpose even if code design philosophy were put in code problems. Something like the chess AI question I posted in another post in this thread would be a code design philosophy problem, something like "How do I make a simple attack system?" is not a code design philosophy problem because the problem is that the person does not know Byond well enough to make even something simple - two different things and the latter belongs in newbie central.
I am just concerned for the wellfare of the forums, I have spent thousands of hours doing Byond-related things and I don't want to see it messed up (though that is not saying it can't change). It just seems like some of the current policies and some of the things suggested here would do that, at least in my oppinion. As others have stated, advanced code design philosophy does not go well with the newbie central section. This might seem trivial to some, but it seems logical to me and I view logical things as important. I think I've stated my oppinion in most ways possible in this thread now, so I suppose I'll let this one go and hope all turns out well in the end. | |
Any ideas regarding that?