Have fun routing it to your computer, because if the server doesn't respond with a proper hash, the game closes.

Host > Creator my ass. If you don't want to let me in, don't host my game.

You are the kind of person I don't want hosting my game, and the kind I will block.

Have fun routing it to your computer, because if the server doesn't respond with a proper hash, the game closes.

You can see any connection your computer makes to anything.
This means if you connect to a web-server, you can easily get the address the game connected to.
Then you can go to the site and get the hash yourself.

That analogy is the perfect example of what I was trying to explain. But couldn't find the right situation to explain it.

Creator > Host, my ass. If you don't want me to host, don't give out the host files. Or just implement systems like the one you're going to develop, since I don't want to host after that.

Ever heard of propriety software licensing? If not then, it is MY game and I am entitled to do what I want with it, and you shouldn't be using it unless you agree to this. And it just so happens that I am fully allowed to enforce what I want with MY game by whatever means I want, whether technical or legal (provided what I am doing is not unlawful). This is a legally binding contract that you must abide by, regardless of how I make my game available, whether I give it to you personally, or make it freely downloadable off the internet (but in the second case I would have to make the license agreement readable to you before you downloaded the game).

In short, it is my game, I am just letting you use it, and I can revoke that permission at anytime I want and you have to abide by what I say. Otherwise I'll just force you to through legal pressure.
Creator > Host because you (as the host) agreed to it. Hahahaha.

Also, I can think of plenty of ways that would make it impossible for someone to host my game without my permission. (The act of logging in alone wouldn't be enough)
They might literally require permission from me in that I have to log into the server on my account and grant permission before anything can be done.
I could hard code a list of people who can and cannot host the game into the source code of the game, try and redirect that (and it takes the best part of... 3 seconds to add/remove someone from the list, recompile the game and reupload it).
Or I could simple encrypt the list of allowed hosts. Just try and redirect your internet traffic to check your own list, because unless you know exactly how I encrypted my list yours is totally useless. The same can be done with a central server.
Or I could simply code admin power to all of my other keys, and use them in conjunction with one of my other PCs to log into the server you are hosting and shut it down (I have access to 3 PCs, and can change my IP address in the best part of 5 seconds, and I know how to use proxy servers. You cannot ban me, nor can you stop me from accessing a game you are hosting and shutting it down, without also stopping everyone else from joining the server, which entirely defeats the point of hosting a server in the first place).
I could also make use of dirty tactics, and ask people to not play servers hosted by certain people. (Or threaten them into not doing so) I could even bribe them into playing on other servers.

You don't have ultimate power. The only power you have is the power I let you have.

Anyway. Topics like these are just one of the reasons why I don't release games I've made to the BYOND community and probably never will.
It is also one of the reasons I don't support the BYOND community (and actively tell people to avoid it).

The Magic Man wrote:

Ever heard of propriety software licensing? If not then, it is MY game and I am entitled to do what I want with it, and you shouldn't be using it unless you agree to this. And it just so happens that I am fully allowed to enforce what I want with MY game by whatever means I want, whether technical or legal (provided what I am doing is not unlawful). This is a legally binding contract that you must abide by, regardless of how I make my game available, whether I give it to you personally, or make it freely downloadable off the internet (but in the second case I would have to make the license agreement readable to you before you downloaded the game).

I don't buy that argument one bit. I don't think this sort of licensing scheme, when it comes to a freely distributed game, has ever stood up to any kind of legal challenge. It's kinda ridiculous to say "I'm giving out this game freely, but anyone who runs afoul of me will have it revoked!" If your game was sold, such as if it was downloadable only for subscribers, you might have a different case. Even then though, you're pushing the bounds of what an EULA is actually for, even if one considers those morally un-repugnant.

In short, it is my game, I am just letting you use it, and I can revoke that permission at anytime I want and you have to abide by what I say. Otherwise I'll just force you to through legal pressure.

This is not terribly unlike Hasbro installing spy-cams in your house to tell if you're using the "Free Parking windfall" house rule in Monopoly, and taking away your game if you don't play right.

This sort of "I absolutely control the end user" attitude has been a detriment to Big Media and I'm frankly appalled that so many people are now casually buying into it.

I could also make use of dirty tactics, and ask people to not play servers hosted by certain people. (Or threaten them into not doing so) I could even bribe them into playing on other servers.

Except for the threatening, this is really the best possible option if you don't approve of a certain host. I think if you're reasonable people will follow you to the servers of your choice. If you're unreasonable, people just aren't going to play your game that much.

Anyway. Topics like these are just one of the reasons why I don't release games I've made to the BYOND community and probably never will.
It is also one of the reasons I don't support the BYOND community (and actively tell people to avoid it).

That's really a shame, though it's your call. I think you're missing out on a lot of the good parts of this community by focusing so heavily on the negative, though. And I also think no good at all will ever come from the idea that the creator should always and forever maintain absolute control over how people enjoy their work (an idea that falls well outside the bounds of copyright law, let alone standards of fair use).

The occasional lousy host will pop up, but there's not a lot that can easily be done about it. Trying to exercise that level of control will just irritate your player base anyway. I live with the fact that not every host of Incursion is reputable; people just avoid those hosts. Word of mouth gets out easily enough, and I make it clear on each server who's hosting. Bad hosts are unpopular; good hosts are popular. And what defines a good host isn't the creator's call, unless the creator manages all the hosting themselves. This degree of concern and micromanagement is unhealthy.

Lummox JR

Airjoe wrote:

Have fun routing it to your computer, because if the server doesn't respond with a proper hash, the game closes.

Then I will get the hash it's supposed to get somehow? Not only are you releasing the library publically so anybody can view your methods of doing things, you still forget it's my own computer we're talking about. I have free access to the memory, I can retrieve any packets you're sending to the outside as well as replies you receive. You have no control over what I can and can't do, since it's my own property.

Host > Creator my ass. If you don't want to let me in, don't host my game.

And I won't. But those bad hosts you're talking about, the ones that disrespect the host, they're the only ones left out there that will host your game after all the more intelligent hosts have gone.

You are the kind of person I don't want hosting my game, and the kind I will block.

Then go right ahead and block somebody intelligent enough not to outright ban the creator from his own game, leaving you with a bunch of idiots who are prone to suddenly banning you for any reason they like.

What I meant with my previous post was this: since you don't have control over the hosts' computer, the following counts: if the person is determined enough, they can host, and your feeble attempts at stopping them is only going to scare away your legit hosts. Ironic, really, since the exact same thing seems to happen with things outside of BYOND, too.

-- Data

Its not your house.

Android Data wrote:

Then I will get the hash it's supposed to get somehow? Not only are you releasing the library publically so anybody can view your methods of doing things, you still forget it's my own computer we're talking about. I have free access to the memory, I can retrieve any packets you're sending to the outside as well as replies you receive. You have no control over what I can and can't do, since it's my own property.

There's no way to get the hash. It's not like it's some constant string. Server receives variable, server calculates hash, game verifies hash. It changes all the time.

Of course there's never 100% guarantee on this, in the same way users can bypass Crispy's FullBan. But if I can wipe out 90% of the newbies that do this, good enough for me.


Flame Sage wrote:

If your releasing it as a library, wouldn't it be easy to calculate the hash?

If the owner is dumb enough to keep the same hash, yes.


Keeth wrote:

You can see any connection your computer makes to anything.

This means if you connect to a web-server, you can easily get the address the game connected to.
Then you can go to the site and get the hash yourself.

No, you can't, because even if you track the variable sent to the website, the hash value is constantly changing. And even assuming you spoofed a good connection once, it periodically and randomly rechecks the connection. So if you get the good hash once, good for you. Your game will close in 5-10 minutes, and your IP and key will be blacklisted.

Airjoe wrote:

And I am ready for bad hosts, including those who do not allow me to enter my own game to enforce my own game's rules.

I understand it's the host's computer and blah blah blah, but if you don't want me coming in, then don't host my game.

Then don't expect me to host your game, or even join it. Don't expect anybody with a decent brain to even join your game if you rely on practises like these to have some form of control, because you're not respected enough yourself.

The reason I don't use Vista is because of the EULA. The reason I won't even join your game is because of the practise you're employing here.

What might be funny to do, however, is attack your central server and bring it down. Of course I won't be doing this, but I would definately get a laugh if somebody else did it and all your servers went down because they couldn't contact their central server to verify if they're "legal".

Conclusion: You suck, and I'm going to put you on my "ignore" list from now on.

-- Data

I think you are looking at it backwards. It's more like you built a house, and gave it to someone for free, then they locked you out. In which case the law would be on their side because you gave them the house in the first place.