ID:133021
 Jun 10 2009, 2:33 am (Edited on Jun 10 2009, 2:40 am)
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The forums could use some basic rules (only one category has any atm?), post them somewhere obvious, keep them up to date, and accompany them by moderator reactions to rule breaks. Situations are currently handled inconsistently on a regular basis.
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Dunno if I'd call it "grossly mishandled". More like inconsistently handled as I said. With no visible rules in any category except the Classified Ads (as far as I know) any moderative action at the moment would indeed be merely on a whim.
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There have been rules on the forums before. Two sets actually, one was once accessible via [Posting Help], but that appears to have vanished.
There was also a set on the now defunct and missing Bwicki. I have no idea what happened to the set under Posting Help, I guess they were removed during a forum update and either forgotten to be readded or deliberately taken away for whatever reason. And the Bwicki was discontinued and subsequently deleted. After some help from ole faithful archive.org, I recovered this page on the matter. It couldn't hurt to restore it to the forums somewhere. | |
Tiberath wrote:
After some help from ole faithful archive.org, I recovered this page on the matter. It couldn't hurt to restore it to the forums somewhere. Its not a bad start, could definitely use some updating though, some of those categories either don't exist at all anymore or have been renamed, and there are several new ones. And some reaction information could be added as well; if a post/topic is "only going to cause arguments and flaming", mod should do [x], accompanied by informative message [y]. Players will be warned, then one week banned, then perma-ban, ETC ETC... whatever the rules are gonna be =P It could either be included in the Help link above the category listings, or a new Rules link could be added next to that one. | |
Well, in that pages defence, it was last updated two website versions and two years ago.
Another thing the old archive.org gave me was the old posting help page, containing a very old community standards. I suppose I can splice them together, mix and match, find examples and otherwise polish them both together and forward it onto the powers that be and let them slice through it, burn it, call me a witch, lock me in the dungeon for an eternity while someone else writes up one that will be used in place of mine, see that one posted and have the other user locked in the dungeon with me. No promises that these events will come to pass, though. | |
On a somewhat related note. Moderator tools could use some major updates, both here on the BYOND forums, and in member forums.
Overlords (forum owners, whatever) should be able to set a list of reasons for why a post is being deleted, a topic is being closed, or moved, or whatever (spam, flame, off topic, etc). When a moderator takes such an action they should be able to choose one from the list, which will then send a generic message (also set-able by the forum owner) to ALL posters involved (so if a thread with 50 replies gets deleted, all repliers will know why their post was lost). There should also be a list on your next log in, sort of like the warning system works now, except displaying a list of all actions related to any of your posts. Messages about moves wouldn't really need anything specific, just a message that it was moved from x to y should be pretty explanatory. There could/should also be an Other option, where mods can write in their own reason. | |
No forum software I've ever come across has anything remotely similar to the suggestions you're making. It's a drastic amount of overkill.
If you want explanations, threads that are locked generally have a moderator posting the reason why it was locked, if they don't, it's drastically obvious. I consider deleted threads to be of no concern. They were deleted for two reasons: They contain no actual content (spam), they have degenerated into nothing but senseless bickering (flame war). As for the set list of approved responses, currently a moderator can choose whether or not to provide a reason for their action available in the [View History] link of the forums. If no reason is found, looking at the tread in question will generally tell you why this was done pretty quickly. | |
Falacy wrote:
On a somewhat related note. Moderator tools could use some major updates, both here on the BYOND forums, and in member forums. I'm pretty sure a topic showing up locked (or disappearing entirely) is enough of a hint that something undesirable took place. In addition, everyone that contributed negatively to a topic receiving moderator wrath knows exactly what they did, and any claims of "I don't know what I did wrong and/or you guys suck" is a thinly-guised blind attempt to weasel out of reprimand via a moderator not involved in the original issue. Everyone else generally doesn't care (I know I don't when I see a topic get locked). I think most of this displeasure related to moderator action stems from the targets of reprimand believing that these things are up for debate, or that the terms of the action are negotiable. | |
Mobius Evalon wrote:
I'm pretty sure a topic showing up locked (or disappearing entirely) is enough of a hint that something undesirable took place. Closed topics usually come with a post from the moderator on why they were closed. Deleted ones on the other hand don't come with anything, for all you know the forums just screwed up and lost your post, or you just thought you did but didn't actually post it. Most people I've seen just re-post deleted posts. | |
You don't have the whole picture. We tend to send warnings to people when we delete a post. They get banned if we have to delete the post again. They know their post was deleted and why.
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Nadrew wrote:
You don't have the whole picture. We tend to send warnings to people when we delete a post. They get banned if we have to delete the post again. They know their post was deleted and why. But all replies get deleted along with the top-level post. There could have been completely unrelated branch-off conversations going on down there with nothing wrong in them. EDIT: And fizzle flamed in that L4D2 topic 3 or 4 times, 2 of which were with near exact posts (after the first one was deleted). Does that mean he got banned =P | |
Falacy wrote:
But all replies get deleted along with the top-level post. There could have been completely unrelated branch-off conversations going on down there with nothing wrong in them. Depending on the mood of the moderator, offshoots that actually still contain discussion might get reassigned, if they don't however, that's the fault of the user for posting good discussion in response to flames. | |
Tiberath wrote:
Depending on the mood of the moderator, offshoots that actually still contain discussion might get reassigned, if they don't however, that's the fault of the user for posting good discussion in response to flames. They might have been replying to something 5 posts off, that wasn't even related to the flames. Or, like most people, was just responding about the fist post, but doing it through the last post in the topic. I don't bother backtracking through every post in the tree to see which one started it all before I go posting something =P | |
So Nadrew, how are things lately? I haven't heard from you in a while!
-- See how that doesn't work? A reply should be made to the post you're replying too. That's how these forums work. You don't spot a post you want to reply to and then scroll down to the last post in the thread and hit reply, it doesn't work like that. If I want to reply to Nadrew, I'll reply to his post, not yours. | |
Tiberath wrote:
So Nadrew, how are things lately? I haven't heard from you in a while! It works as well as can be expected, and people do it all the time. A reply should be made to the post you're replying too. That's how these forums work. You don't spot a post you want to reply to and then scroll down to the last post in the thread and hit reply, it doesn't work like that. Usually I read through all posts in a thread, and then (unless I'm quote posting something) I just reply to the last related one I read. | |
Falacy wrote:
Tiberath wrote: It doesn't work at all, that's the point. If I want Nadrew's attention, I'll reply to Naderw's post. It's how these forums work. Anyone who's not doing this is using the forums incorrectly. As such, it's their fault if their posts get deleted. Usually I read through all posts in a thread, and then (unless I'm quote posting something) I just reply to the last one I read. Then you're using the forums incorrectly... | |
I don't know why you're arguing, you've already got the final answer regarding whether moderators care about productive posts being deleted or not.
Tiberath wrote: Depending on the mood of the moderator I daresay it also tends to apply to other things. ;P | |
Tiberath wrote: Depending on the mood of the moderator I daresay it also tends to apply to other things. ;P That really depends. If there is valuable content deep in a thread of flame wars, it really depends if the moderator feels like going through the hassle of reassigning parent posts and what not. I remember trying to do this once, granted I'd only had the mod powers for like, three days at the time, and it took me three or four tires to get it right. A more seasoned moderator might have gotten it right the first try, I don't know. But really, if a user isn't using the forums correctly (as Falacy seems to not be) and deliberately loses potentially discussion making posts in the process, it really shouldn't be the job of a moderator to reassign the post IDs and delete around the flame thread. If a user is using the forums correctly, then their post shouldn't be deleted, it's that simple. Of course I'm only speaking for myself, I have no ideas if the others feel the same way or not. | |
No worries, thread detachment and reattachment are a pain in the butt for all of us.
As for the topic at hand: There aren't really any set in stone moderator rules, we just moderate what we believe should be moderated. If we're not sure we'll ask the other moderators for their opinion and proceed based on that. The only thing I can tell you is to use common sense. If something you're doing seems to be wrong, don't do it. If someone else is doing something wrong, don't reply to it. As for your topic that I locked (which was later unlocked after discussion) was going to generate flames no matter who ended up replying to it. The nature of the post invited a certain group of people that would rather flame your topic than discuss it. It has ended up costing more moderator time than it needed to due to it being unlocked, which is exactly why I preemptively locked it. You weren't in any way at fault, and Popisfizzy is nearing is last chance so you don't have to worry about that. Admittedly he has been given a little leeway due to his contributions to the community (when he actually contributes) and his obvious intelligence when it comes to certain things, but everyone runs out of good graces eventually when they're being trolls. Hopefully soon Tom will whip us up some nice new moderator functionality that will make keeping track of problem users and moderator actions easier, that way a lot less ends up slipping through the cracks by giving us all an easy means of tracking who's done what and when. We'd be far more likely to ban someone if we could see they had been warned a few days earlier. Perhaps it is time to post a set of 'common sense' rules that people not quite versed on the web could benefit from. But if you've been using the internet for more than a few months you should know how to act on a forum without being banned from it. | |
Without a clearly defined set of standards and rules for moderation, the mod team will continue this behavior indefinitely. "Rules" around here are based upon the whims of individuals with no accountability.