Shoop Da Fail...
I know, I was just teasing you. :)
And Yeah, good idea. [edit] Although I think this may be better(Minus the Color :S)  | |
Axerob wrote:
Hmmm, I might flip their positions, since most games most likely won't have mods. And put "servers" (which would make more sense in the hub's current state as well) instead of "games" for the original, and something like "modified servers" for the other. There may also be a desire to know how many rip games there are, and how many servers there are, and how many players there are between all of them. I also don't see much point in even having the [Join]/[Browse] links if they're just going to look plain text; just make the [server info, p. count] section be the link. In which case you could better stack them on top of each other, like in my previous demo image. | |
Falacy wrote:
Which is why this new "mod" idea should make the world a happy place. By sending BYOND bankrupt and forcing the shutdown of the project? No, I can't see myself being very pleased about this. As much as you seem to hate the rips. The memberships that are bought and the ads that are clicked by the anime community are pretty much the sustaining feature of BYOND. If they go, BYOND's maintenance costs, server costs and Lummox's wages all become expenses Tom probably can't maintain on his own. | |
Tiberath wrote:
By sending BYOND bankrupt and forcing the shutdown of the project? No, I can't see myself being very pleased about this. "Which is why this new "mod" idea should make the world a happy place." We won't be getting rid of the current rips, we won't be getting rid of peoples option to make "new" ones, we just wont be displaying them all on the main pages. The average rip only pulls in like 3 players anyway, of which I'm sure all were brought in by the "creator" of the rip - or by the people the creator brought in. I doubt there would be any loss at all. The memberships that are bought and the ads that are clicked by the anime community are pretty much the sustaining feature of BYOND. If they go, BYOND's maintenance costs, server costs and Lummox's wages all become expenses Tom probably can't maintain on his own. Sounds like a good time to fire Lummox then. Why did they hire him in the first place? Since they won't reveal any information about their income or expenses its impossible to make any kind of assumptions. For all we know they're making 10x more than what they need to handle their costs. | |
Falacy wrote:
We won't be getting rid of the current rips, we won't be getting rid of peoples option to make "new" ones, My bad, I misread that as delete them. Sorry. Sounds like a good time to fire Lummox then. Why did they hire him in the first place? That's just an absolutely terrible idea... You fire the full time programmer on the project, and progress all but halts. Lummox is paid to work on BYOND, this is a good thing, it means that there is always, with the exception to weekends, full time progress being made on BYOND. If I was Tom, I doubt I could maintain that level of dedication to a project like this for 13 years. Personally, this statement seems to be part of a prejudice towards Lummox I've noticed you have for a fair while now. Since they wont release any information about their income or expenses its impossible to make any kind of assumptions. They're not a publicly traded business, so they don't have to. But a basic search tells us they're using two SoftLayer dedicated servers, so I'll leave you to ponder which one they're using. And Lummox's pay would be around 50k - 70k a year. I also remembering him saying to took a pay cut when he left his job to work on BYOND full time. | |
Tiberath wrote:
If I was Tom, I doubt I could maintain that level of dedication to a project like this for 13 years. lol because I don't put in countless hours of work on my crappy little games, for far far -far- less money, having to deal with the same noobers, and also with the staff and their software issues. Personally, this statement seems to be part of a prejudice towards Lummox I've noticed you have for a fair while now. It probably started when 4.0 first came out and was a literally unusable, completely destroyed version of 3.x. But my current problem is that I find it hard to believe that he actually works on the project "full time". "it means that there is always, with the exception to weekends, full time progress being made on BYOND" as you put it; either this is untrue, Lummox is a horribly slow worker, or the BYOND source is 1,000x more complicated than any software ever created. Not to mention every time he implements a new system it ends up breaking 30,000 other things. I also think that there are better programmers out there, and considering he's being paid a supposedly legit salary I see no reason to hire some person from BYOND instead of looking around for someone with the best possible skill-set. ...so I'll leave you to ponder which one they're using... I shall ponder nothing! If they aren't willing to let us know then its not worth the effort to guess. And Lummox's pay would be around 50k - 70k a year. Pretty much anywhere between 40k and 100k would be a viable number here. Not a very viable range to make an accurate guess in. And regardless, its a hell of a lot more than I'm making around here. | |
Falacy wrote:
lol because I don't put in countless hours of work on my crappy little games, for far far -far- less money, having to deal with the same noobers, and also with the staff and their software issues. Tom's been at this thirteen years, in much more difficult programming languages... you can not compare... It probably started when 4.0 first came out and was a literally unusable, completely destroyed version of 3.x. I managed to beta test the pre-release without any problems at all. Mobius, Nadrew and I had great fun finding the bugs, and coming up with many interface tricks that we probably still use today. But my current problem is that I find it hard to believe that he actually works on the project "full time". "it means that there is always, with the exception to weekends, full time progress being made on BYOND" as you put it; either this is untrue, Lummox is a horribly slow worker, or the BYOND source is 1,000x more complicated than any software ever created. You are aware that things like the upcoming isometric mode requires tediously large amounts of back-end rewriting? Not to mention compensating for backwards compatibility? The problem is, when they add stuff like this, your "crappy little games" still have to work just the same as they ever did. So every major change also has to take into account the previous version. At least, that is the general desire. I also think that there are far better programmers out there, and considering he's being paid a legit salary I see no reason to hire some person from BYOND instead of looking around for someone with the best possible skill-set. There's always someone better. So I can't argue that statement. But then again, if you don't have someone passionate to the system, the best possible skill-set programmer is going to demand the maximum salary any god-like programmer deserves. Which can be quite high, probably well passed 120k. I shall ponder nothing! If they aren't willing to let us know then its not worth the effort to guess. If you'd gone to BYOND Labs, you'd have see their server specs, and if you'd followed my link, you'd have been able to piece out which servers they're using and what the monthly cost is. Please stop skimming mine (and for that matter, everyones) posts when you make replies. It's very frustrating. Pretty much anywhere between 40k and 100k would be a viable number here. Not a very viable range to make an accurate guess in. And regardless, its a hell of a lot more than I make around here. I went with 70k, 'cause I remember that number from a discussion on the subject once, a long, long time ago. So at the very least, I don't think it's over 70k. | |
Falacy wrote:
Not to mention every time he implements a new system it ends up breaking 30,000 other things. First of all, while you continue to cry like a baby about stupid bullshit, you seem to annoyingly over-exaggerate everything. Second, that is the nature of working from someone else's source. Even if you think you've implemented something into it without harm, there very well may be something that you didn't know you affected and one man cannot test for every possible outcome. Thirdly, when you make anything worthwhile, that's when you get to complain about Lummox's work. While you may feel that his work is -wrong-, you may not complain about it, especially not the way you do. | |
Tiberath wrote:
Tom's been at this thirteen years, in much more difficult programming languages... you can not compare... C++ is relatively similar to DM. It is of course more complex, but its definitely not incomparable. I managed to beta test the pre-release without any problems at all. Mobius, Nadrew and I had great fun finding the bugs, and coming up with many interface tricks that we probably still use today. Yea, I probably reported 20+ bugs before the official release was even out as well. How is that a good thing? I'd say it was a good 6 months (at least) before 4.0 was in any sort of stable state. If you'd gone to BYOND Labs, you'd have see their server specs, and if you'd followed my link, you'd have been able to piece out which servers they're using and what the monthly cost is. Please stop skimming mine (and for that matter, everyones) posts when you make replies. It's very frustrating. Never heard of BYOND Labs before, and I went to that link you posted, it didn't tell me much. | |
Hiro the Dragon King wrote:
Second, that is the nature of working from someone else's source. Even if you think you've implemented something into it without harm, there very well may be something that you didn't know you affected and one man cannot test for every possible outcome. How long has Lummox been working with the BYOND source now? He should know that thing inside-out upside-down and backwards. If he hasn't taken the time to read through and understand it all by now (at least, if not rewriting the poorly written parts that he likes to complain about), then that's his problem, but it shouldn't be effecting his quality of work. Thirdly, when you make anything worthwhile... Feel free to look at any of my games | |
Falacy wrote:
C++ is relatively similar to DM. It is of course more complex, but its definitely not incomparable. A high-level VM language verses a low low-level language? Seriously, have you looked at the Windows API before? Please tell me you're not one of those guys that says "it's easy in DM! So it should be easy in C++!" Yea, I probably reported 20+ bugs before the official release was even out as well. How is that a good thing? The copy you got was a leaked release, not something the public was meant to have. You saw an unfinished product before we had finished testing it. Never heard of BYOND Labs before, and I went to that link you posted, it didn't tell me much. BYONDLabs top post has the server specifications, the softlayer link is a list of Dedicated servers SoftLayer has. Match the CPU and Ram counts, and there's the monthly price of a BYOND server. Multiply that by two, and that's how much they're paying, per month, for their dedicated servers. How does that constitute "didn't tell me much"? ... ... ... | |
Falacy wrote:
How long has Lummox been working with the BYOND source now? He should know that thing inside-out upside-down and backwards. If he hasn't taken the time to read through and understand it all by now (at least, if not rewriting the poorly written parts that he likes to complain about), then that's his problem, but it shouldn't be effecting his quality of work. And even so, he still can't test for every possible bug. There are things that "broke" that weren't found until many versions later. If a community of regular users didn't find them, how is he supposed to? Feel free to look at any of my games I have. My statement still stands. | |
Tiberath wrote:
How does that constitute "didn't tell me much"? ... ... ... Because you hadn't mentioned BYOND Labs at that point, so I had nothing as server spec reference material? | |
Hiro the Dragon King wrote:
I have. My statement still stands. You can have your foolish opinions if you want. Could say the same about BYOND, or windows, or any other projects out there. Doesn't make it true to anyone but you. | |
1) You severely overestimate how much this project makes and how much people are paid. And I don't have to tell you because it's none of your business.
2) Lummox JR is a FANTASTIC programmer, one of the best I've had the pleasure of working with. There are plenty of people in corporate jobs who make six figures and don't do shit (I know because I was one of them for a few years). He is constantly working on updates to the software and site and while the community may not be as great as it used to be (that's debatable), the technical aspects have gone nowhere but up since his hire. 3) There are rampant bugs in beta testing because it is beta testing. There's really no way to make widespread platform changes (such as 4.0 required) without screwing some things up, but that's why we kept versions 3.0 and 3.5 available for so long. 4) You are one of the most despicable, ungrateful people I've ever encountered. You continue to show complete ignorance of what it takes to maintain a project of this nature and an even worse lack of respect for the people who make it happen. Even though you bring some good things to the table, I am VERY close to booting you out of here for good, and I am probably the most tolerant person on this site. This thread has become derailed with nonsense. Get back on topic or it'll be axed. | |
Falacy wrote:
Tiberath wrote: Damn it, I keep formatting my posts differently in my head, and writing them differently. I swear I said BYOND Labs in my first post... I need caffeine. (That's some good ignoring every other aspect of the post, by the way.) | |
Tiberath wrote:
(That's some good ignoring every other aspect of the post, by the way.) Oh, uh.. A high-level VM language verses a low low-level language? Seriously, have you looked at the Windows API before? Please tell me you're not one of those guys that says "it's easy in DM! So it should be easy in C++!" I've written a program in VC++ to convert one programming language into another, its not much different than DM. The biggest differences are variable typing and basic syntax. I've also done various other stuff with it, with VB, and with AS (which is somewhere between DM and C++), as well as a few other languages. DM is the most user-friendly (though it could use the auto-formatting that AS offers =P), and most directly geared towards game design (followed by AS I'd say). The copy you got was a leaked release, not something the public was meant to have. You saw an unfinished product before we had finished testing it. Maybe, but what about the countless versions after that? The first few versions were just plain un-usable. Multiple times I attempted to start or update projects with 4.0, but the massive amount of issues that came up just made it near impossible. There have been graphical bugs lingering around that have just recently (within the last year or so) been addressed. (Tom wants to bant me but I'm like his House =P) | |
Falacy wrote:
Oh, uh.. I recommend you get over yourself. It's very, very difficult to piss Tom off normally. I can tell cause' the only reason I'm here right now is because of his lenience. Do you want to get kicked out of the BYOND fanclub? Apparently you have a desire to work with the lower level languages like C++ out there. If they're equally as easy as DM, why don't you write a game in C++? Better yet, why don't you write a BYOND in your vision? I've written a program in VC++ to convert one programming language into another, its not much different than DM. The biggest differences are variable typing and basic syntax. I've also done various other stuff with it, with VB, and with AS (which is somewhere between DM and C++), as well as a few other languages. Converting from one language to another - possibly using a program that does most of the brunt work for you - is not the same as developing BYOND. BYOND was made by Dan a long time ago, and from what I've heard, he never commented his code. And there's a lot of code involved. A lot of code. Go download a version of the original Space Station 13 source-code. Go look at it, and try to determine how you and you alone can turn that into a better game, by fixing bugs and changing major systems. Then multiply the amount of code in there times 1000 and you might come close to BYOND. (Not that I can tell, anyway, but in terms of difficulty I think it's accurate.) DM is the most user-friendly (though it could use the auto-formatting that AS offers =P), and most directly geared towards game design (followed by AS I'd say). If you like AS so much, just go there, and quit bugging everybody about trying to box in these rips. They're bringing in the revenue, and although they might not be liked, they'll eventually die out on their own. The only idea I support is the ability to allow modifications to be submitted to hub entries like Exadv1.SpaceStation13. Maybe, but what about the countless versions after that? The first few versions were just plain un-usable. Multiple times I attempted to start or update projects with 4.0, but the massive amount of issues that came up just made it near impossible. There have been graphical bugs lingering around that have just recently (within the last year or so) been addressed. I have never, ever had any major issues with BYOND since 3.5 up to now. I haven't had any graphical bugs, I didn't even notice any change between OpenGL and DirectX and whatnot. And that was on my old computer. On my new computer, I don't see any difference between hardware and software mode; on my old computer it used to lag more in software mode. (Tom wants to bant me but I'm like his House =P) I don't think you should be pushing him. If he gets pissed off, he's pissed off. Also, since he owns BYOND, he can do whatever the heck he wants, since he has no superior which will say "don't do it" apart from his conscience. | |
lol I just took the game at the top of the list