Teh Governator wrote:
Kumorii wrote: A better way to put it might be that it's become stagnant. | |
Xioden wrote:
For people coming in on their own and arriving at byond.com, the site is pretty bad... We're working on some changes to correct this, including approving games to keep rip-volume down. It's not quite as oppressive as the system Falacy suggested (which I've also considered), but it should do the job. Coincidentally, we also have a feature in the works to show newest games. "Top rated" is a bit ambiguous since it needs someone to rate them-- basically the net some of the community (member) ratings is the "popularity". We're going to have a little more learning curve than those other sites because of the need to install software (at least until the Flash client works). Also, since developing games is important to BYOND, we do have to mention it somewhere prominent. But we can work on improving these things. | |
Tom wrote:
We're working on some changes to correct this, including approving games to keep rip-volume down. It's not quite as oppressive as the system Falacy suggested (which I've also considered), but it should do the job. Having humans approve games is going to lead to nothing but problems, as it always has in the past, and still does with guilds. If anything, its going to be more "oppressive" than my suggestion, and most likely far more complicated to implement. Coincidentally, we also have a feature in the works to show newest games. "Top rated" is a bit ambiguous since it needs someone to rate them-- basically the net some of the community (member) ratings is the "popularity". I assume the "feature in the works" relates to filtering out the junk with a 'newest' sort? Since with the current systems you'd end up with nothing but rips, and a sort by creation date shouldn't be a difficult system to add by itself o.O We're going to have a little more learning curve than those other sites because of the need to install software (at least until the Flash client works). But we can work on improving these things. I thought if you attempted to join a BYOND game without BYOND installed, it would trigger the install process? That's the way several of those other sites work, and should be the way BYOND does as well. * Regardless of what excuses you want to throw out, the current situation(s) aren't acceptable. We've had this discussion alone multiple times before, with various people involved. You've more or less ignored us every time. There was one by TheBatman I can't seem to find... because that isn't his key... Is it really that difficult to just do everything the community (or just me!) tells you to =P Also, since developing games is important to BYOND, we do have to mention it somewhere prominent. Trying to lighten the mood with jokes eh =P The problem isn't with the Create button being there, its with the play button not actually playing anything... You could leave that button exactly where it is, and just turn the rest of the page into game listings. | |
Falacy wrote:
Tom wrote: Well, at some point we (or some party) have to approve games if we want to keep rips down. The idea here is basically to allow anyone to create hubs (which can be usable in private testing and such). Members can submit them when they are ready. Those games that meet some basic standards then get listing & search privilege. We'll try it out and see how it goes. I thought if you attempted to join a BYOND game without BYOND installed, it would trigger the install process? That's the way several of those other sites work, and should be the way BYOND does as well. Yes, that is correct, but most people don't want to install software without being informed of its purpose up front. You could leave that button exactly where it is, and just turn the rest of the page into game listings. Noted. | |
Tom wrote:
Well, at some point we (or some party) have to approve games if we want to keep rips down. The idea here is basically to allow anyone to create hubs (which can be usable in private testing and such). Members can submit them when they are ready. Those games that meet some basic standards then get listing & search privilege. We'll try it out and see how it goes. That's almost exactly how it worked when I first started on BYOND. It wasn't a particularly effective/impressive process. Yes, that is correct, but most people don't want to install software without being informed of its purpose up front. Then that's when you direct them to something like this. | |
Falacy wrote:
The problem isn't with the Create button being there, its with the play button not actually playing anything... The play button should link to this page. | |
Falacy wrote:
That's almost exactly how it worked when I first started on BYOND. It wasn't a particularly effective/impressive process. Yes, back then we only had two people reviewing games and the submission process wasn't obvious (or restricted in any way, is it will be now). Also, the way we organized games was somewhat arbitrary. These things are all improved in the new iteration. I am not claiming it is a perfect system, but we can see how it goes. Yes, that is correct, but most people don't want to install software without being informed of its purpose up front. Yes, that's a good idea (I don't recall if we do that already, but we should make the change if we don't). I don't think there is harm in showing this download up front. Almost every site that requires software (eg, Itunes) presents things in this fashion. | |
SuperAntx wrote:
Falacy wrote: We could certainly revert to that system. That's how it worked in a prior iteration. Truth be told, the change has had no effect on our numbers (I don't think anyone is seriously deterred by this), so this is really much ado about nothing. | |
SuperAntx wrote:
The play button should link to this page. Yea, that's more or less what I told them 6 months ago in that other topic lol | |
Tom wrote:
Xioden wrote: That should help things a bit, but better ways of listing the game would serve as an automatic approval system. There are also possible issues that could arise similar to the old system back-in-the-day where games sat in limbo for months waiting on approval. Coincidentally, we also have a feature in the works to show newest games. "Top rated" is a bit ambiguous since it needs someone to rate them-- basically the net some of the community (member) ratings is the "popularity". The current system basically boils down to a popularity contest. "Rate my game #1 and get GM", People using it as "games I'm currently playing", etc. It doesn't really show anything about the actual quality of the game. BYOND needs a more proper system for rating games. Use a 1-5 star system, and you are rating games for their own merit, and a game doesn't magically get ranked lower just because it isn't a "hot new game" anymore. We're going to have a little more learning curve than those other sites because of the need to install software (at least until the Flash client works). Also, since developing games is important to BYOND, we do have to mention it somewhere prominent. But we can work on improving these things. Developing is a big part, but for most it is almost a secondary thing, since the bigger piece of the pie is players. Basically I echo what Falacy said here, "You could leave that button exactly where it is, and just turn the rest of the page into game listings." | |
This is true, but it's one less thing for people to complain about.
Personally, I believe this would be the most worthwhile change to the site at this point in time. | |
This is kind of off-topic, but how is the flash client coming along? Haven't heard about it in awhile.
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SuperAntx wrote:
This is true, but it's one less thing for people to complain about. If that is our biggest problem, we're doing a lot better than I thought! | |
Xioden wrote:
The current system basically boils down to a popularity contest. "Rate my game #1 and get GM", People using it as "games I'm currently playing", etc. It doesn't really show anything about the actual quality of the game. You're never going to get a legit/working ranking system based quality, unless you leave it to a select few people, and even then it will probably be biased and unfair. The way it is now works fine from everything I've seen - its the best ranking/display system that has existed since I've been here. BYOND needs a more proper system for rating games. Use a 1-5 star system, and you are rating games for their own merit, and a game doesn't magically get ranked lower just because it isn't a "hot new game" anymore. Youtube changed its rating system from a 1-5 star system, to the thumbs up/down system, because their data showed that like 99% of the votes were either going to a 1 or a 5. I think a simple + works best, with no way to vote negatively. People will intentionally go out of their way to vote negatively on everything, but will rarely vote positively - unless it actually deserves it or they're getting something for it. It should all balance out in the end, even if it does just come down to a "popularity" contest. Maybe they could use a % of rank. If 100 people voted, and 1,000 people play, that game would have about the same rank as one with 10 votes and 100 players. | |
Tom wrote:
If that is our biggest problem, we're doing a lot better than I thought! Biggest problem with the website, yes. You said yourself the front page doesn't seem to matter much, which would just leave us with the hub listings. Having a high user base for the website don't mean a darn thing unless they can find something to play! | |
Xioden wrote:
That should help things a bit, but better ways of listing the game would serve as an automatic approval system. There are also possible issues that could arise similar to the old system back-in-the-day where games sat in limbo for months waiting on approval. Yes, that is a legitimate concern. However, this time I am confident we can manage the load because we have more contributors and a much more organized "task list" system. Again, let's just try it out and see. The bottom line is that in order to keep rips out, we're going to have to do some kind of game approval. BYOND needs a more proper system for rating games. Use a 1-5 star system, and you are rating games for their own merit, and a game doesn't magically get ranked lower just because it isn't a "hot new game" anymore. It sounds good on paper, but we need specifics. If it's just users (or members) doing the rating, it's basically the same thing we have now. I'm quite certain our players will just give 10 stars!!! to the games they like (even if they are rips) and 0 stars to the ones they hate for whatever reason. For a community rating system to work, we need a large volume of mature users. Developing is a big part, but for most it is almost a secondary thing, since the bigger piece of the pie is players. Basically I echo what Falacy said here, "You could leave that button exactly where it is, and just turn the rest of the page into game listings." Ok, we'll play around with something along these lines. The old, old BYOND.com front page was just a game listing, but it was confusing because back then it didn't give any indication how to actually play those games. Now the system is a little more intelligent so theoretically we could present the games list up front. That said, I do believe that people will assume we're just a flash site and we'll lose a lot of users at the install process. That's one reason I wanted to present the download + explanation up front. | |
Tom wrote:
This time I am confident we can manage the load because we have more contributors and a much more organized "task list" system. Again, let's just try it out and see. The bottom line is that in order to keep rips out, we're going to have to do some kind of game approval. When your crazy plan fails at life, can we try mine? =P | |
Tom wrote:
Xioden wrote: This is also something I think I'd like to see discussed openly a little before it's implemented as far as what policies and guidelines are going to be used, because this is something that will stir up a bit of controversy. BYOND needs a more proper system for rating games. Use a 1-5 star system, and you are rating games for their own merit, and a game doesn't magically get ranked lower just because it isn't a "hot new game" anymore. Regardless of the actual mechanics that end up getting used, the biggest issue really just becomes that you can only rate 10 games, and the individual games rating is based on the position in the list. If my top two games I would normally give 5 out of 5, The current system basically forces me to choose. one to give less than that. If I have all 10 games, and a new one comes along, same thing, I have to basically choose one and say "Sorry dude, you're getting axed from the list". | |
LordAndrew wrote:
The problem with "banning" ripping is that no one is going to admit their game is a rip, and after so many people get their hands on a game and change things and rename them, it becomes hard to truly know who owned the original.All you need to do is login. In 95% of them you'll spawn in exactly same place. "The original one" won't have 1000000e+0235 levels per second leveling system. Also I doubt it's even somewhere there alive. | |
For people coming in on their own and arriving at byond.com, the site is pretty bad. It's a completely unintuitive page, "Play" or "Create". Okay so lets check out games 'Click "Play"' Okay I need to download some software, install it, figure out what the hell is going on in the software, etc. An actual game via the big obvious "Play" button, is 10+ clicks away. The
Lets look at some other game sites...
YoYo games (Game maker) - What is the first thing you see, Games!
Kongregate - First thing you see? Games!
Armor Games - First thing you see? Games!
Addicting games - First thing you see? Games!
MiniClip - First thing? Games!
FunOrb - First thing? Games!
Noticing a trend? Every one of those sites throws the games right in your face. People who end up here looking for games don't give a crap about what the engine can do or what the BYOND software can do "Play online free, Easy to install, Variety of games, woop-de-doo!" just show them the damn games! This goes for any software really, show them what has been done with BYOND, don't just tell them about it!
The games page is a complete mess also. Lets see, we can sort by popularity, or popularity... Yea... Wheres the top rated games? Newest games? Most Played? Some of the best games on BYOND are buried in the games listing. Most new users aren't going to bother looking that far.
The sorting on the games page also actively punishes single player games. They are always going to be listed after a long list of games with servers, when single player games are infact greatly lacking on BYOND.