Feb 9 2011, 1:01 pm
In response to Forum_account
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OrangeWeapons
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IMO, it's the easiest way to kindly tell them that there are available resources everywhere if they cared to look around at all before asking just a simple question.
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SuperAntx wrote:
If BYOND was distributed with a few basic game engines with corresponding art packs I think the problem would solve itself after a few years. When I say art packs, I mean huge tile sets people can actually make a beefy game with in just under a day. Now this I can agree with. The art packs alone would help immensely in the common programmer theory that cheap/free art resources are hard to come by. And I wouldn't doubt that it would help motivate a few programmers out there looking to make a game, but haven't quite found the motivation they need to pull it off. Having something like a free to use graphics pack included with the software would most definitely bring a few people out of the darkness. Once again, back in 2003, I'd have killed for such a graphics pack. | |
Tiberath wrote:
SuperAntx wrote: Out of curiosity, does anyone know Tom's stance on this? I think it would greatly benefit aspiring programmers who want to learn the basics of BYOND but don't have art work and become discouraged and give up when they can't find an artist. I know there are plenty of art packs in demos but it would be nice to have a "BYOND Sponsored" version that is polished. I do think that games that use icons from the art pack wouldn't be featured or be lumped in the incomplete pile. | |
I'll teach you some things if you pay me. Don't expect this stuff for free, no matter who the person is that you want to teach you. For some things, you just need to man up and study yourself. The top developers took the time to learn it themselves. They don't owe you anything.
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Perhaps you also didn't read my multiple comments where I mention over and over and over again that I am not saying that you should do anything for free. That repeatedly I have said that I think people should be paid for there time and work. In fact if you read the comment completely you will notice that I even mention that it would be a great way for developers to make extra money because I am sure that those who are actually interested in learning, wouldn't mind paying (for instant with your offer. If you were serious about it, I wouldn't mind taking you up on that offer and paying for it). Or the part where I say that the information isn't just going to be handed to anyone. That there is a good amount of work the person has to do in research and asking questions if they really want to learn that wont come from someone else. Work that the person who wants to learn actually has to do on there own. Then maybe you would understand that I also do not (as mentioned before multiple times) feel that anyone owes me anything. That this is purely for the benefit of everyone whether through developers making extra money or newbies getting help or the quality of games on BYOND rising, that it would be nice (Not required or forced but just nice in general for all) if the community could come together to try and help one another.
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My biggest pet peeve in this argument, is that it's revolving around what The experienced programmers should do, or what The Byond staff should do, and not revolving around the new, inexperienced user.
I certainly wouldn't object to the artpack idea, and I certainly think more tutorials couldn't hurt, but in the end, it is not my, nor anyone else's responsibility to teach someone how to use DM. Now that being said I do like actually helping people who are working on non-fangame projects, I just don't want it to be mandatory, I don't have much free time these days. | |
I've done a fair share of tutoring to people here. The biggest issue with tutoring is the pupil. I recently stopped tutoring because of an impatient, childish, demanding, and annoying pupil who thought 'tutor' meant "I'll help you write your game". A lot of newbie programmers don't truly grasp how complex and intricate the skill they are developing is, and how much time it is going to take for them to learn it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's difficult to find a pupil worthy of the time it takes to teach them. The problem with what I just said is that it implies you seek a pupil, and nobody does that.
I've had a lot of people randomly add me to an IM just for me to turn them down because they are looking for help for their anime rip. I've never had anyone outright ask me to help them on an original project.. | |
Vermolius wrote:
I've done a fair share of tutoring to people here. The biggest issue with tutoring is the pupil. I recently stopped tutoring because of an impatient, childish, demanding, and annoying pupil who thought 'tutor' meant "I'll help you write your game". A lot of newbie programmers don't truly grasp how complex and intricate the skill they are developing is, and how much time it is going to take for them to learn it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's difficult to find a pupil worthy of the time it takes to teach them. The problem with what I just said is that it implies you seek a pupil, and nobody does that. This has been my experience as well, everyone who as come to me asking for help because 'they don't learn by reading ' generally just ask me to do the work and that they'd presumably... learn by reading my code? | |
Reverse the logic, lets make a polished pack, then ask Tom about his stance. You'll probably find him to be much more supportive of a project that is mature.
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Fugsnarf wrote:
I'll teach you some things if you pay me. Don't expect this stuff for free, no matter who the person is that you want to teach you. For some things, you just need to man up and study yourself. The top developers took the time to learn it themselves. They don't owe you anything. The question is not: why don't experienced developers volunteer their time? If that was the question you'd be correct to say that it's because they don't owe anything. The question really is: why do the developers who do volunteer their time spend it crushing newbies dreams and offering bad advice? To put it a different way: some developers volunteer their time and benefit the community, some volunteer but don't benefit the community, some don't volunteer at all. You're explaining why people are in the third category and the question really is: how can we move people from the second category to the first? | |
Un, my phone killed itself as I was making a massive post.. So I'm just going to make a short post.
I agree with Verm, Mo, and a few others about those "Pupils" who want to learn Programming. Theres the, Code-for-me I'll go back and look over the code to learn it people. Theres the Code-my-rip. Then theres the Go-over-everything people, not bad, just annoying. I personally ran into the first type the most. I say that the people who volunteer to help, usually just point to a guide, now we have a lot of guides a lot since BYOND began, but personally, I was a touch and go, and a tweaker. I never looked at a guide up until 2 months ago. Plus, A lot of the guides I look at are out of date, or they just don't work when I tried to implement them. Anyways, when I started a few people helped me, Tiberath, Dan (master not dungeon) and a few others. Anyways if you really wanted to make a forum or feature, or game or something on BYOND I'm up for it. On another note, Verm, you havn't been asked by the right people. Will you help me with my game? :D off topic. So yeah, everyone here has good points, their are a lot of guides on byond and they can be helpful, but people also need some real-time teaching. Also no the expert Programmers don't owe anything, but it is also the "Pupil" they need to learn patience, but the people teachim shouldn't expect it, for the most part they are kids who have not done a bit of hard work in their life, FOR THE MOST PART, I mean really look at todays generation. No patience. Buuuuut the "Teacher" should have the patience for the "Pupil" after all, so yeah. Anyways, have a nice day, good posting, and good points. | |