I like Israel, maybe because being a Jew makes me obligated to...

Techgamer wrote:

Gee, Maybe if Israel wasn't belligerent and aggressive they wouldn't have to worry about rocket attacks or that their neighbors are going to attack.

Turns out that people who've had their houses bulldozed to make way for Israeli settlements and live in the most horrid Apartheid in this century don't exactly like their oppressors.

I wouldn't call Israel any more belligerent or aggressive than any of its' neighbors. Of the the many wars between Israel and its' neighboring countries, the only one Israel can really be accused of starting is the 6 day war. And Israel can only really even be given credit for "starting" this war because the Egyptian army was already mobilizing, and the Israelis happened to mobilize themselves faster. I suppose you can also bring up the whole Lebanon thing, but everybody and their mother was invading Lebanon at that point, including the Muslims.

Anyway, all that being said, if the Palestinians don't like the conditions they are living in, they are more than welcome to flee next door to Jordan. Thousands do every year. At this point in time, there are, by various reasonable estimates, around 1/3 to 1/2 as many Jews living in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) as there are Arab Palestinians, a number amounting to several hundred thousand. So in my honest opinion, regardless of what people may wish to happen, an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank is unlikely at this point.

Given that the distance to the Jordanian border and Amman is approximately 40 and 50 miles respectively at the farthest points, as opposed to the hundreds of miles you're claiming, I'm inclined to believe you aren't actually well informed about what you're arguing. I think it would be best to end the conversation at this point.

Toadfish wrote:

Techgamer wrote:

also:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1112/S00063/ drones-above-gaza-as-israel-breaks-truce-death-toll-at-5.htm

Israel was bombing people today, breaking their truce with Hamas for the Nth time. But we should support them because something something Ottoman empire.

(PS: Israel was even less of a country than Palestine was at it's inception)

I'm just as critical of my country's actions as the guy next door, but the guy who wrote this article full of hyperbole. You would do yourself justice to read a less biased newspaper. The aggressions were in response to 20 rockets fired between Friday and Saturday, if I recall correctly.

Interesting, can you link me an alternate source? Most papers or blogs I've read have said that very few rocket attacks have occurred since Palestine bid for UNESCO recognition.

Techgamer wrote:

Vexonater wrote:

Given that the distance to the Jordanian border and Amman is approximately 40 and 50 miles respectively at the farthest points, as opposed to the hundreds of miles you're claiming, I'm inclined to believe you aren't actually well informed about what you're arguing. I think it would be best to end the conversation at this point.

Well not all Palestinians emigrate to Jordan, but if you're going to play the Semantics game, whatever.

The point still stands that you are advocating forced migration of a minority group out of a country. You know who else did that right?~

I didn't advocate forced migration at any point. I simply said they were free to leave if they so desired.

Incidentally here is a wiki article on 2011 rocket attacks on Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011

@Tech: I believe there were cases where Israel's military actions were unjust (Operation Cast Lead is certainly borderline). That being said - please read this article. Israel's civilian casualty ratio is a lot lower than pretty much anywhere in the world right now, despite the obvious difficulty of avoiding casualties in an urban area where tactical use of civillians as human shields is employed (incidentally, what do you base your death toll from white phosphorus count on? I'm only aware of about 50 burn victims). I think saying "I don't begrudge the IDF for any preemptive attacks that don't harm innocents" is a bit extreme in light of this - at the very least we clearly never target civillains. That civillain casualties can't be avoided is a fact of war, and if you look at the news, Israel is perhaps the only country in the world that gets so much negative coverage because of that. One's a tragedy, a million's a statistic, as they say.

In light of this, I personally don't think Israel's military operations are what we should primarily be criticised for. Poor strategic choices in our management of the embargo and poor handling of our diplomatic relationships (including uncooperativeness with the UN and recent troubles with Turkey) are issues a lot more severe.

Edit: and let me just say those rocket attacks some like to downplay are pretty fucking scary =P. Believe me when I say running to bomb shelters perhaps a dozen times a day isn't very pleasant (to say the least). I barely endured it for 6 months; I can't imagine how people in more dangerous areas have lived with it for years. International criticism from groups that don't live in our reality is always hard to take - I absolutely emphatise with Israelis who take it personally. I'd imagine Palestinians have it much the same.

I don't have the time to watch this documentary right now, but maybe later.

As for the white phosphorus - seems like a fair estimate (I was just curious if you had actual numbers). That said, since it seems like you're bringing up white phosphorus to intentionally stress a painful point, I'd like to mention that I am personally not of the school that thinks we used white phosphorus as anything other than camouflage (because that would be diplomatically and tactically ridiculous). I do think we used them way too liberally, and could've avoided needless injuries to civillains if we were more reserved. You can read opinions about Israel's usage of white phosphorus in wikipedia (and by the way, US usage of it as well).

As for "Israel is perhaps the only country in the world that gets so much negative coverage because of that." This might be tempered by the fact that I'm American, but it seems like our media gives Israel a pass for the most part.

Well, yes, you're American. We're your puppet state. Of course we'll get relatively positive coverage =P.

But for the sources that do give negative attention, I think a huge part of that is that your government really isn't that much better than Hamas when it comes to breaking ceasefires. Well, that and the Settlement can of worms.

There are many reasons, some of them good reasons, that Israel is getting bad coverage. I don't know if I agree with comparing our government to Hamas. That being said - I hope I've shown that given the situation, our military operations are some of the more civillised in the world (and yes, just as or even more civillised than the US's, at least if you compare casualty ratios and general conduct). Yes, sometimes there's bad conduct, violence against civillains, overcautiousness in safeguarding our borders or what have you, but these things aren't at all unique to Israel, and they are things that happen in war, things that are inherent to war, no matter how much you try to avoid them. I'd love it if no innocent is hurt when we retaliate, but it isn't going to happen (at least without mutual cooperation from Hamas). I'd love it if we didn't need to retaliate, but it isn't going to happen. And some people, a lot of them very kind, upstanding people, have a hard time accepting this unfortunate reality.

Edit: Okay, watched the documentary. It didn't add anything I didn't know (it was negatively inaccurate about prison visiting policies though), but I fully symphatise with the teachers and students running those schools and what they have to endure. In the context of our discussion - I don't think the IDF soldiers did much out of line here. It's extremely depressing to me that the student got killed.