I'm sorry to have tricked you, but this is actually going to be an auto-biography that leads up to the primary topic.
Back in 2004, I joined BYOND with the sole intention of playing cool games, little aware of the technical world. My programming knowledge up to that point consisted of limited VB6 that my mother had taught me, and another BASIC variant entitled 'Learn to Program: BASIC' that my friend who introduced me to BYOND had also introduced me to. Oh, also failing to understand C entirely while modifying another program, but that's largely irrelevant.
After playing MLaaS for quite a while, my friend introduced me to the developer side of BYOND, pitching it as incredibly cool. I spent a year or two making dumb mistakes and not quite 'getting it'. Around 2007, everything just sort of 'clicked'. Programming made a lot more sense, and I found myself a lot better at it. I found myself interested in things like networking and taught myself C++. It took a few months and I finally started getting pretty good at it, to the point where I could write simple applications like DreamConfig, which was used to write or amend a hostban.txt for DreamDaemon on Linux.
After I started actually getting incredibly proficient in C++, March of 2008, life happened and I had to take an extended leave of absence as I moved into a completely new life with completely new people, studying in my free time for when I actually got a computer hooked back up. It wasn't until I graduated and went to college in 2010 that I actually got a stable computer running and was able to get back into the BYOND scheme of things.
At the time of writing it's December of 2011. A fully year and a few months have passed since I first managed to re-acquaint myself with the virtual world. Since then, I've been involved in research projects, some private and some public, with other members of BYOND, tearing apart the internals of BYOND slowly. When I say slowly, I mean really slowly.
== End autobiography
The projects I've been directly involved in have either completed due to the full extent of the subject matter being researched or halted due to lack of motivation. The latter part of this is what the title of this post is about. At one point, I was having a discussion with someone about Linux. The picture we were painting, so to speak, was of a full set of BYOND on Linux- the Pager, Dream Seeker, Dream Daemon, and Dream Maker, aptly code-named Dream Link, Dream Wanderer, Dream Daemon (already exists, just supplement it with DreamConfig), and Dream Builder.
After tossing the idea back and forth a little bit, I set forth doing some mock-ups. I switched back and forth for a few months between re-drawing the various controls that interfaces offer that didn't already exist in Qt and doing some research on how the Pager communicates with the hub and, to a much lesser extent, how DS communicates with DD/DS. The Pager <-> Hub research wasn't going too bad until I hit a brick-wall with the authentication. I tried numerous things, including writing a proxy to analyze my traffic with BYOND.com's hub and writing a hub emulator that sat on the other end and forged the intro packet to the Pager over and over and over again with the same data, only to reach the conclusion every time I looked at it. After talking to Tom about it a bit, he expresses interest, to some extent, in our project, but is unable to offer any help.
Fast forward a little bit and Tom publically announces a Flash client. Suddenly, the general consensus is that multi-platform isn't an issue anymore because of the Flash client. This is "Removes Enthusiasm #1".
Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate the effort that Tom and Lummox are putting in with the Flash client. It will be interesting to see a working server/client model with Flash that allows for larger-scale multiplayer games than have been previously done with Flash (that I'm aware of). The problem is that while it is a somewhat-ok solution to multiplatform issues, a Flash client will never be able to completely beat out a stand-alone client. With the stand-alone client, you have the freedom to actually play single-player games on Linux (using DreamDaemon to host and connecting locally) that you aren't allowed with the Flash client. You can actually play games with full interfaces as the developers may or may not have intended, or at least exactly as the equivalent Windows users would play it.
I said the last one was "Removes Enthusiasm #1", so that must mean there's at least one more, right? I mean, I did number it at after all. After Tom announced the Flash client, it seemed like people made a lot of unrealistic expectations about the Flash client. We'll call this #2. Will it allow BYOND's developers to develop for a wider audience? Yes. Will it bring in more players and more developers? Yes. Will that really help BYOND? No.
So now I seem like I'm contradicting myself. I made it sound two paragraphs ago like it would be absolutely amazing because it will provide a greater server/client functionality than seen in Flash to-date by myself, then I go off and say I don't think it'll help BYOND. The problem is that I don't see it really helping BYOND all that much. You're going to bring in new users, that's alright. Most of them will probably be better than the current user-base. You're also bringing in new developers. That's alright as well, but what type of developers are they?
Most of the new developers brought in by the Flash client are going to be the type that grew largely when people started realizing that Flash games could generate a lot of money. They're the ones that are great at making small games that will catch your attention for limited amount of time probably 4, 5, or even 6 days a week, when you're bored listening to some professor lecture about thermodynamics or what-have-you. They'll be good at making these games, and they'll make quite a few of them. Or at least, we can hope they will. We all love those games. This will improve the cash-flow to BYOND and actually generate some funding to the project, that's true, but how will it actually benefit BYOND?
Looking at the bug tracker and the feature tracker, I can see stacks of feature requests and bug reports lined up just waiting to be hammered. Will they get done? Most of them. The feature requests will slowly dwindle, as will the bug reports. What's left? A large player-base that absolutely loves these short Flash games, and a large developer-base that absolutely loves these short Flash games. Ultimately, you don't really have people pushing the engine to its absolute limits all-around trying to figure out what it can or can't do, what it should be able to or shouldn't be able to do, they're mainly in this one, now incredibly large, corner of BYOND. It'll get optimized to do what they want to do, and then it'll just sort of hit a brick wall.
Is that the only possible way for it to end? No. I've played out countless scenarios in my head, the majority of them leading to no real extension to the software outside of the Flash client, some even leading to Dream Seeker being mostly phased out or unmaintained. It could always go the other way, though, but we can't accurately predict that.
It's clear that my points of "Removes Enthusiasm" aren't in order of importance, because #2 isn't THAT big of a deal, where-as #3 sort of is. The Flash client comes out. It succeeds, it fails, who knows. I hope for the former. I, along with many others that I know here on BYOND, am the type of guy that likes to take something, study it, analyze it, try to figure out how it works, and re-create it. If there's three things that I like they'd have to be continued maintenance, improving compatibility, and improving efficiency, no matter how terrible I am at them. Writing a new DS parallel in Linux with C++ and Qt would hit not only the first and the second, but it would also hit the third as we could make recommendations to Tom and Lummox ways that they might be able to improve their protocol or other things.
The Flash client is already coming out, so that removes motivation (See: #1) to work on a native Linux, et al. client to parallel Dream Seeker because people are expecting the Flash client to alleviate multi-platform issues. What's next? Reversing the protocol the Flash client uses to communicate with DD. That's fun, for a little bit. Once it's completely documented, there's no where else to go. It's a new protocol, new technology. It's already probably going to be pretty dang optimized as it is. There's not going to be any room for improvement because the feature-set is set in stone until it's updated by Tom or Lummox, then that's another few hours spent figuring out what actually changed. Sure, it hits point 1, but there's not much of point 2 or point 3.
The point of it is, the flash client's going to come out and it's not going to be all that entertaining for very long (for me, at least). There's not going to be much more that I can actually do around here for entertainment. This is #3.
== End rant
As a summary, for those of you who decided to skip to the very bottom because it's a decent-sized book, the points of demotivation are:
#1. People feel that the Flash client is going to alleviate multi-platform concerns.
#2. The announcement of the Flash client generated unrealistic expectations from a lot of people.
#3. After the Flash client, there's not much left to do.
And to summarize my position on the Flash client itself- I support it despite the fact that I don't feel like it will actually help the actual development of the software that much and it'll essentially drive off anything left keeping me here. I appreciate the work you do, Tom, and the attempts that you are making to keep the project a-float. As such, I will continue to support BYOND by renewing my membership when it comes to an end (as long as I can afford it), but my general activity (that was already pretty low) will start dwindling. Thank you for providing me with an awesome starting point and experience.
P.S. I'm sorry to any that endured reading the entirety of this post. If you exist, you deserve a medal. I started writing this at 6:15 AM CST while having a hard time sleeping, yet being tired. As such, the structure and general efficiency in conveying coherent thoughts is probably non-existent and incredibly low respectively.
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Dec 2 2011, 3:00 am (Edited on Dec 2 2011, 3:06 am)
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Dec 2 2011, 3:29 am
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I've always felt uneasy about the flash client. I'll give it a few months after its release before forming an opinion.
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Will it allow BYOND's developers to develop for a wider audience? Yes. Will it bring in more players and more developers? Yes. Will that really help BYOND? No. Given the title, I didn't expect this post to contain this statement, but I agree completely and was very pleased to see someone else have this thought. I'm not sure if you'll see the type of flash games you're expecting will be made with the flash client since the games will have to be mutliplayer only and connect to an existing server. I think most BYOND games severely limit their own popularity by being multiplayer only. If a user must connect to a central server the game can never get too popular - an influx of 100-200 people would flood a server and ruin gameplay. These games wouldn't be able to scale to meet a decent player load. The other kinds of multiplayer-only games are one that can be downloaded, but require multiple players to enjoy the game. These games can scale because the hosting duty is distributed across all players, but people are much less likely to track down people to play with if they can't first try the game out by themselves. It also concerns me that the flash client is addressing a problem that doesn't exist. I could put together a long list of games that must be downloaded (in other words, aren't accessible as a flash game, java applet, etc.) that have 100,000 or more downloads. Having to download a program and run it to play a BYOND game isn't what's holding back BYOND games from being popular. Not having Linux support probably holds back BYOND games even more, but still isn't the reason why BYOND games have hundreds of players instead of tends of thousands of players. |
Forum_account wrote:
I'm not sure if you'll see the type of flash games you're expecting will be made with the flash client since the games will have to be mutliplayer only and connect to an existing server. I've been having a hard time trying to picture the exact games that will be made to work with the Flash client given that is only strictly a Flash client and I keep coming back to the pseudo-singleplayer or short multiplayer "action" games. I think most BYOND games severely limit their own popularity by being multiplayer only. If a user must connect to a central server the game can never get too popular - an influx of 100-200 people would flood a server and ruin gameplay. These games wouldn't be able to scale to meet a decent player load. I agree there- BYOND isn't made to be scalable like MMORPGs are made to be scalable, as it really shouldn't be. While it would be cool to see someone effectively implement and produce an MMORPG shard-like setup It also concerns me that the flash client is addressing a problem that doesn't exist. I could put together a long list of games that must be downloaded (in other words, aren't accessible as a flash game, java applet, etc.) that have 100,000 or more downloads. Separating this from what follows, I can sort of see where they're coming from but I don't think it's going to work out like they plan. I believe the idea is that they can showcase some of the better games like NEStalgia without people being obligated to download anything or even know that it was made with DM in the first place. The problem is that the selection of games to showcase in this way just isn't there. Most of the games that can benefit from this are all of the terrible anime rips that we've been having problems with all along. Not having Linux support probably holds back BYOND games even more, but still isn't the reason why BYOND games have hundreds of players instead of tends of thousands of players. I don't know if I can entirely agree with this. I am all for Linux support, as I hope I sort of conveyed in the post, but I'm not entirely convinced that the player-base is there either. As much as I don't like to believe it, Windows still holds the majority of end-users' computers. Now, this might be becoming increasingly less so with updates to GNOME, KDE, and Ubuntu/Debian-based Distros (just to name a few) making it more user-friendly for the non-geeky type and with Apple giving people reasons to "Go Mac", but as of right now the majority of (modern) gamers are still on Windows because it holds the most support for the currently popular games. I feel like with this in mind the user-base would probably increase only slightly with no significant effect on the growth of the developer-base. The reasoning behind the latter is that if there's someone with potential that's already using some Linux distro then their likelihood of being able to use a language lower-level than DM already goes up and their reasons to be interested in BYOND diminish. People with Macs, on the other hand, aren't entirely the same way. You still have a lot of the same types, but no where near as bad because Mac is now pretty much a house-hold brand. You can walk onto any college campus and find many average Joe Gamers working on a Mac because you can buy a Mac and it works right out of the box. I like the idea of cross-platform compatibility because it will do nothing but expand BYOND's player-base and potential, which I suppose is probably closer to where you were aiming with the originally quoted text. Introducing Linux and Mac support won't deter people, so it can't actually have a negative effect unless it ends up to be not worth the time. On the other hand, it's likely to increase BYOND's potential because instead of writing a new protocol for DD to communicate with a new type of client, you're working with the old protocol and a new client. You have a fresh perspective on what can be considered an old problem, which makes it a lot easier to identify bottlenecks and general inefficient areas. These can be pointed out and improved upon, expanding the capabilities of what developers can actually do now. |
With the flash client, I don't think it's so much that they hope to highlight games that already exist so much as they want to make it easier for future games to be marketed outward without being tied to BYOND.
Right now it's hard to get someone outside the community to try a game without selling them on BYOND as a package first. Making it easier to sell people on the games will ultimately sell more people on the potential of BYOND than bringing them to the community directly. |
Audeuro wrote:
I feel like with this in mind the user-base would probably increase only slightly with no significant effect on the growth of the developer-base. The reasoning behind the latter is that if there's someone with potential that's already using some Linux distro then their likelihood of being able to use a language lower-level than DM already goes up and their reasons to be interested in BYOND diminish. Exactly. Being cross-platform won't hurt BYOND and can only increase the number of users, but I don't think this is a significant factor in what's currently limiting BYOND's popularity. Who knows, maybe there's some community of Linux- or Mac-based game developers out there that would fall in love with BYOND but don't have the opportunity. I've been having a hard time trying to picture the exact games that will be made to work with the Flash client given that is only strictly a Flash client and I keep coming back to the pseudo-singleplayer or short multiplayer "action" games. That's what I imagine too and I don't see it going well. Because the flash client would have to use a central server you'll probably have many people on a server. Most BYOND games run at 10 frames per second to begin with, when you factor in network latency they'll just look like terribly slow games. Players won't expect or understand that their commands are being sent to a server, then updates are sent back in responses - it'll just seem slow. That slowness will cancel out the fun factor of it being multiplayer, and there's a good chance that the fun factor just can't I think BYOND's strongest form is singleplayer games that can also be hosted and enjoyed with your friends. You first run the game locally so there are no network issues and, if you like the game, you play it with other people and aren't bothered by the network issues because you like the game. The flash client doesn't really support this. You could run the game with DD and use the flash client to connect locally, but considering the flash client is stripped down and that this isn't a distributable form (not nearly as easy to run as an .exe), it's far from ideal. |
AlexandraErin wrote:
With the flash client, I don't think it's so much that they hope to highlight games that already exist so much as they want to make it easier for future games to be marketed outward without being tied to BYOND. The reason I assumed the former is because with the latter, you actually need to have the people there to make the games worth marketing without being tied to BYOND. We lack that and there's nothing really to bring them in. |
It's possible to package a game as an .exe so somebody without BYOND installed can run it: http://www.byond.com/members/ DreamMakers?command=view_post&post=90318
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Don't look at the surface of the situation as visible to you as the whole of reality. You're looking at the games that get hosted/posted and the people who participate in the blogs and forums as the whole of BYOND.
At any given moment, BYOND has more people in it who could/would be making good games with it than are, but the motivation to finish their work or share it is not present. Maybe they plan games they never actually start. Or maybe they do but they only spend an hour or two every other week. Or maybe they go full-out on it and then hit a stumbling block and never get over it. Or maybe the game's basically finished but they're keeping it to themselves and never polishing it up because they can't see it catching on. Some of these people will keep playing around with BYOND as a side thing for years. Some of them won't. And at any given time there are people who drift through the community and see the potential but then realize the stumbling blocks in marketing anything they make with it and decide it's not for them. Anything that gives people who are already "here" (maybe not active on the website but present in the set of people who mess around with BYOND) to finish games and people who pass through a reason to stop is going to result in more games. To put it simply: if you make something more attractive, it will attract more people. It's axiomatic. |
Forum_account wrote:
I think BYOND's strongest form is singleplayer games that can also be hosted and enjoyed with your friends. You first run the game locally so there are no network issues and, if you like the game, you play it with other people and aren't bothered by the network issues because you like the game. The flash client doesn't really support this. You could run the game with DD and use the flash client to connect locally, but considering the flash client is stripped down and that this isn't a distributable form (not nearly as easy to run as an .exe), it's far from ideal. To add to that, being able to host from Dream Seeker improves this experience. Assuming I'm just wanting to have a social play session with one of my friends (that I don't have, but that's besides the point), then being able to just run the game and hit "Host" without having to configure Dream Daemon and connecting to my own server is a major selling point. I guess one of my main problem with Flash is that we seem to be exchanging one problem for another. Right now people see BYOND as a sub-par gaming platform because of its limitations. Now, we're transitioning (not completely, hopefully, but to some extent) to a client written in a language that has its own limitations independent of BYOND's own. |
Why look at it as a trade? DS has some issues, flash has some issues... another way to phrase that is they each have separate strengths. Operating on both platforms means people can make use of both sets of strengths, or work around each set of issues.
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AlexandraErin wrote:
Don't look at the surface of the situation as visible to you as the whole of reality. You're looking at the games that get hosted/posted and the people who participate in the blogs and forums as the whole of BYOND. At any given moment, BYOND has more people in it who could/would be making good games with it than are, but the motivation to finish their work or share it is not present. I like your enthusiasm and optimism about BYOND's developer-base, but it's simply misplaced. If they aren't motivated right now when they actually have the full power of BYOND and the ability to distribute it as a standalone executable independent (pretty much) of BYOND, then what will it actually take? Maybe they plan games they never actually start. Or maybe they do but they only spend an hour or two every other week. Or maybe they go full-out on it and then hit a stumbling block and never get over it. Or maybe the game's basically finished but they're keeping it to themselves and never polishing it up because they can't see it catching on. There's nothing wrong with being a hobbyist, but until they actually produce a game or some essence of a game they aren't really worth noting because they've done nothing but store potential. Some of these people will keep playing around with BYOND as a side thing for years. Some of them won't. Marketing a game on BYOND is magnitudes easier than marketing a game outside of BYOND, and marketing a game outside of BYOND isn't all that difficult as SilkWizard has somewhat shown. Anything that gives people who are already "here" (maybe not active on the website but present in the set of people who mess around with BYOND) to finish games and people who pass through a reason to stop is going to result in more games. Refer to my previous comment about motivation. To put it simply: if you make something more attractive, it will attract more people. It's axiomatic. You're hoping for more quality developer-base by attracting sheer volume of users. It might work to some extent, but it's not all that good of a concept. |
As I see it, the main value in the Flash client it to give BYOND better outside exposure. It's not absolutely necessary, as anyone can go out and market their game outside of BYOND right now. However, for whatever reason, people would rather bellyache about the miniscule community here than try to reach the masses who have never heard of and couldn't care less about BYOND.
Technically speaking, there are some limitations to BYOND multiplayer, but it's still the thing BYOND does best. And, for the right kind of game (basically anything that doesn't rely on a lot of client-side effects or twitch mechanics), BYOND can perform just fine. If an interesting game was released into the wild, it could have hundreds of hosts, each managing, I dunno, 20-100 users? With server linking this could conceivably be made into a single MMORPG but even if that isn't the case, there's nothing wrong with having a bunch of smallish games. Minecraft operates on this model and they have zillions of players spread across zillions of servers. |
AlexandraErin wrote:
Why look at it as a trade? DS has some issues, flash has some issues... another way to phrase that is they each have separate strengths. Operating on both platforms means people can make use of both sets of strengths, or work around each set of issues. The problem with this is that a lot of the limitations people frown upon on BYOND specifically are basically due to either 1.) Networking, 2.) Limitations of the processing of Dream Daemon, and/or 3.) Lack of client-side processing, with some others throwing in here and there. For the flash client, #1 is going to be less of a problem. They're creating a protocol specifically for the Flash client, so it should be optimized at least to some extent. We'll throw this one out of the Window for the Flash client. #2 and #3 are where the problem lies. With #2, that's not going to change because Dream Daemon is still Dream Daemon. For #3, you're moving from your application being built in a lower-level language (relative to Flash) to a higher-level language with its own limitations, restricting how much client-side processing can actually be done. |
Tom wrote:
As I see it, the main value in the Flash client it to give BYOND better outside exposure. It's not absolutely necessary, as anyone can go out and market their game outside of BYOND right now. However, for whatever reason, people would rather bellyache about the miniscule community here than try to reach the masses who have never heard of and couldn't care less about BYOND. My hope is that it'll raise awareness of BYOND, even if people then end up using DS to run games and never use the flash client that much. AlexandraErin wrote: Why look at it as a trade? DS has some issues, flash has some issues... another way to phrase that is they each have separate strengths. Operating on both platforms means people can make use of both sets of strengths, or work around each set of issues. You'd only get access to the features of flash that the flash client is programmed to use (which are the features necessary to emulate what DS can currently do). You wouldn't be able to add your own custom flash code that creates flash-only effects that Dream Seeker can't support. You really are getting the worst of both worlds, not the best of both. |
Man, people really don't seem to have any understanding of human motivation here. It's not an on/off switch, and the vast majority of cost/effectiveness or risk/payoff decisions that people make aren't something that we sit down rationally and think about. I think maybe programmers don't like to think of themselves (and by extension, other people) in these terms because it seems irrational, but this actually how life works. We walk around on the cusp of this decision or that, and then some little thing tips the balance... something changes to alter our perception of the worth of something, or to make us see something as worth it when it wasn't before.
You're hoping for more quality developer-base by attracting sheer volume of users. > It might work to some extent, but it's not all that good of a concept. That's actually not what I was talking about, but yes, that is in fact important. I was making a huge blog post on the very concept. Sturgeon's Law is that 90% of everything is crap. 90% of everything will always be crap. And the more open a platform is, the fewer barriers to entry (which include emotional ones as well as practical ones) the higher the actual percentage will be... but the fewer barriers to entry there are, the more gold there will be, too. This is how the internet works. Think of a successful webcomic artist that you like. Imagine tomorrow there was some sort of gatekeeping system put in place so that only webcomic artists who met certain standards could be "published". Chances are that if they are successful today they would meet those standards. But imagine those standards had always been in place. Would they have ever gotten a start? Possibly, but possibly not. And here's a key thing: I picked webcomics because the crap-to-gold ratio there is huuuuuuuuuuuuge. The internet is a graveyard of comics whose number of updates plus readership at peak would barely break double digits. But the very openness, the fact that anybody can come along and put up a webcomic, is what allows the successful ones to do their thing. And because we're not all going to one central site and sifting through every webcomic ever made but relying on things like trusted referrals, targeted advertising, and active and passive word-of-mouth, we get the gold and we don't see much of the crap. And even though webcomics as a medium are incredibly diverse in styles, quality, and aim, we somehow find the ones that we'll like. This isn't a phenomenon that's unique to webcomics. Blogs work the same way. Internet fiction works the same way. Everything on the internet works this way. The BYOND community's inward-facing marketing doesn't work this way because it doesn't work. Outward-facing marketing is a different story, but it's hampered at a practical and emotional level by things that tie marketing the game to marketing BYOND. |
@Forum_account:
Again with the everything is binary. The choices aren't solely the best of everything or the worst of everything. When people talk about DS's issues, I don't assume they simply mean technical limitations. When I hear someone's making a game with BYOND, I sort of implicitly assume they're interested in working within BYOND's capabilities. The statement that defines what something is limited to evaluates to the the same as the statement that defines what it's capable of. "I only have $100 in my pocket." is the same as "I have $100 in my pocket.", in other words. The DS set-up has some marketing limitations (more perceived than actual, in my opinion, but there is actual along with the perceived.) Flash has some technical limitations that DS doesn't have. Ergo, there are ways in which DS is better and ways in which flash is better, and we don't have to collectively choose one or the other... we can pick the one that suits our needs best. Our world is enriched by the choice, not impoverished. |
Audeuro wrote:
You're hoping for more quality developer-base by attracting sheer volume of users. It might work to some extent, but it's not all that good of a concept. Tom has said his hope was that someone would use BYOND to make a popular game and the game's popularity would increase BYOND's popularity. This hasn't really happened but the flash client is a new and slightly different chance for this to happen. Still, if it works out, I'm not sure it'll bring any decent users who stick with BYOND. The website doesn't offer much that would tell a hobby game developer "yes, BYOND is the tool you're looking for", they're more likely to think it's just a website that has RP chat rooms. There's also the chance that the flash client might give people the wrong idea (that BYOND is for flash games only) and they don't bother visiting the site at all. Tom is open to improving how the site represents the BYOND software to potential BYOND game developers. Maybe we really should take him up on that. I have a draft laying around somewhere. |
Tom wrote:
As I see it, the main value in the Flash client it to give BYOND better outside exposure. It's not absolutely necessary, as anyone can go out and market their game outside of BYOND right now. I can appreciate the fact that you're looking to expose BYOND to a greater audience. I can see there being a definite short-term benefit to producing it in that it will expose BYOND to a significantly larger volume of people that can provide better funding for developing the project. Long term, though, I can't really see where the better funding will affect the users/developers that BYOND has now. The new user-/developer- base is going to be geared towards producing and playing games on this Flash client because that's what they are used to, and that's what they like. I'm sure a good portion of them will move to using Dream Seeker to its full potential (in their designing and playing of games), but I can't shake the feeling that most of them won't be able to move out of the Flash mindset because that's how they were introduced to BYOND. However, for whatever reason, people would rather bellyache about the miniscule community here than try to reach the masses who have never heard of and couldn't care less about BYOND. Personally, I resort to bellyaching about the community because there's not much I can do. Most of the people that I, personally, could try to introduce BYOND to wouldn't be interested as they can do better things with other platforms or other languages. I know absolutely nothing about what features the Flash client will actually have or what your personal plans for the direction of BYOND as a software is, so I don't really have anything absolutely positive to offer someone already biased against BYOND or biased towards other languages. Can you be blamed for that? Not really. You're a software developer, not a business manager. Business managers are the ones that emphasize marketable traits that don't exist yet, software developers are the ones that prefer to emphasize marketable traits that do exist. Now, if there was even a significantly dumbed down strictly command-line version of DreamSeeker for nothing but single player for Linux/Mac other than starting a server and using Telnet, I could probably market that to people and renew an interest that's mostly dead now in pure text-based games. Technically speaking, there are some limitations to BYOND multiplayer, but it's still the thing BYOND does best. And, for the right kind of game (basically anything that doesn't rely on a lot of client-side effects or twitch mechanics), BYOND can perform just fine. I can agree to this for the most part. I feel like you're trying too hard to emphasize the multiplayer aspect of BYOND, though. Yes, it does do multiplayer well and it saves the (sometimes irritating) hassle of having to design and implement your own networking code and protocol. This undoubtedly attracts people. What's being lost in the Flash client, though, is the casualty that exists in being able to simply start a game in Dream Seeker and click "Host" to play it with your friends like I did with TheJerm13 back when I first started BYOND. For the same reason I don't agree with the notion (that once existed, not sure if it still does) of removing hosting/VM capabilities from Dream Seeker and making it client-only. If an interesting game was released into the wild, it could have hundreds of hosts, each managing, I dunno, 20-100 users? With server linking this could conceivably be made into a single MMORPG but even if that isn't the case, there's nothing wrong with having a bunch of smallish games. When the changes to link() were made to provide a more seam-less transition, I was thrilled. This was a major step in the right direction to improving the scalability of BYOND games if the developer so chose to use it effectively and actually approach MMORPG status. |
Audeuro wrote:
the casualty that exists in being able to simply start a game in Dream Seeker and click "Host" to play it with your friends To add to that - I'm not sure what you mean by "click 'Host'", but with world.OpenPort() it can be part of the game that initiates a multiplayer game mode, not part of the BYOND software itself. The more easily a BYOND game can create, manage, find, connect to, and disconnect from multiplayer games the less confusing it is. It would be ideal if people could play a multiplayer BYOND game with their friends without knowing what "Dream Seeker" or "the pager" means. To the user, everything is handled by the game (not a combination of the game, dream seeker, dream daemon, the pager, etc.). |
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