Chasm Update 11/1/11

ID:120681
 
Oct 31 2011, 11:46 pm


Hey everyone! (That is, everyone who actually reads these things..)

I took a bit of a break from working on NVS for the night in order to fiddle with Chasm. I was able to get rid of all the movement and collision bugs (FUCK YEAH!) and I started to consider the theme and focus of the game.

For a while now I've wanted to make a game that's interesting in terms of story but I noticed that if I want good story I'm going to have to make it single player which is something I didn't intend to do with Chasm.

So instead I figured I'd model the game around a game that I hold very dear to me, Phantasy Star Online. PSO was able to tell a story with great gameplay AND interactive multiplayer (though limited to 4 person teams).

What I plan to do is make a game where enemies will spawn in rooms as you traverse maze-like dungeons collecting weapons, power-ups and other items. The combat will be based heavily on games like Castlevania and Metroid, focusing on platforming during combat to provide an action packed experience. Servers will be limited to four players and they will clear the dungeons room by room, coming up to a boss at the end. So imagine a mixture of Megaman, Metroid, and Castlevania with the added bit that you can have a four player CO-OP story mode. To me, that sounds pretty damn fun.

Each player will be assigned a color upon entering a server which will be randomized (Red, blue, green, yellow). Color doesn't really affect your character but you will have the ability to choose a class and you will be able to create and save character types. You will be able to level up and change out armor and weapons to suit you.

There will be three classes, Fighter, Archer, and Mystic. Everyone can use any weapon, however some weapons are better for other classes, for example a staff will give you bonuses to strength but it will give you a larger bonus to magic abilities, while swords will do the opposite, favoring strength.

Swords and bladed weapons will have less range but do more damage, obviously, but going into combat with a mystic or archer will greatly boost your survival rate. (as well as boosting difficulty a bit =P)

You'll do damage and gain exp and levels, you'll have at least 4 unique areas to explore each with their own enemies and in the future this will expand for other players. I think I'll follow the semi-WoW format and start with a level cap of 50 and then boost it every time there's an expansion. The bosses will hopefully be huge with multiple parts, as will some sub-bosses and enemies.

Ultimately I want this game to become the most fun thing to do on Byond for those who like original games with fun combat, a nice advancement system and RPG qualities that let the player choose their hero.

I would go on about how the game will be but I already want to get back to work on it. Anyways. Have a nice night and I hope you like the idea. As always, let me know what you think! =)
Nov 1 2011, 12:04 am
Sounds good.
Nov 1 2011, 4:27 am
I was excited about this project because it looks interesting, but the gameplay description sounds very ordinary.

You'll do damage and gain exp and levels

I've played a thousand games with that same description. What'll make this game different?
Nov 1 2011, 5:12 am
Why not go a more Trine style platforming;

You have your basic attacks, but you can upgrade them on a very steep slope. Past that there is no leveling. The enemies you found hard at the start of the game will still scare you as much at the end, and when you run into something new, oh Jesus.

You can keep a personal score if you want to track progression, something like 1 point for hitting an enemy and 100 points for passing a level. -10 points if you die.


Also you simply must have an entire level where it's completely black and all you can see are your eyes are the enemies white areas. :)
Nov 1 2011, 5:15 am
Forum_account wrote:
I've played a thousand games with that same description. What'll make this game different?

Well Bravos game will have Fighters, Archers, and Mystics. You don't see that in a lot of games.
Nov 1 2011, 8:56 am
I would avoid the standard rpg level up paradigm. For a platformer, much smaller "levels" work better. For example, in Castlevania, you collected hearts to power special weapons and could power up the whip up to three times which increased its power and reach. Castlevania 3 is a good example of how different character types can play into it.

I wouldn't go beyond Metroid's "levelling" where you collected new ability powerups and increased max health. The problem becomes that the more rpgish you make it, the more it works against the platform premise.

I would suggest using XP as points that can be redeemed between areas to swap or upgrade abilities, buy equipment that is expendable (for example a shield that can take one or more hits before breaking or keys that open doors), restore health, etc. Of course, you can always find things in areas, too.

Some things to consider: will you have multiple lives or just an energy bar? Will death mean you have to start an area over, or can other players bring you back (say at a save point)? Willl you be able to revisist areas? Is there any incentive to do so?
Nov 1 2011, 9:54 am
Sorry I haven't responded yet, I just woke up.


To everyone asking about the leveling and traditional RPG things, I want to make an original game but I want some kind of advancement system that people are going to be comfortable with as well as providing fun gameplay.

What I suggest is that instead of a traditional level system I can make it so that, as you fight you gain exp, as usual, but everytime you level you get a skill point that you can spend on a feat. Instead of classes you will be able to custom crate your class based on the feats you choose. Some feats will require others to be unlocked first and of course there will be feats that mix classes.

Basically what I could do is, instead of levels, an adaptive upgrade system that boosts damage or adds abilities depending on the type of character you want.

How does that sound as an alternative?
Nov 1 2011, 10:54 am (Edited on Nov 1 2011, 11:03 am)
It's not clear to me what the point of the game is so I'm not sure how these other things (leveling up, etc.) help the game.

This paragraph seems to be the best summary:

What I plan to do is make a game where enemies will spawn in rooms as you traverse maze-like dungeons collecting weapons, power-ups and other items. The combat will be based heavily on games like Castlevania and Metroid, focusing on platforming during combat to provide an action packed experience. Servers will be limited to four players and they will clear the dungeons room by room, coming up to a boss at the end. So imagine a mixture of Megaman, Metroid, and Castlevania with the added bit that you can have a four player CO-OP story mode. To me, that sounds pretty damn fun.

But I have no idea why generic RPG elements would make that more fun. It sounds like you should instead work on making puzzles or randomly generated levels. Come up with different roles each player can have that'll force them to work together to make it through each level. Do things based on the player's color - the red player can pass through red force fields, so there are sections of the map that are only accessible to them and they have to obtain an item on their own, then go back and use the item to help the group proceed.
Nov 1 2011, 11:03 am
@F_A

The issue with that is that the game will basically become a Sidescroller version of Casual Quest, which is something I'd like to avoid at all costs.
Nov 1 2011, 11:10 am
Now that I have Casual Quest in mind, your original idea sounds a lot like a sidescroller version of CQ. I'm not sure what's wrong with that and I'm not sure how adding generic RPG elements would change that.
Nov 1 2011, 11:22 am
Well, with CQ there's no way to explore or level up your character you just get a random class and take on the enemies.

By adding a system to traverse the world as well as allowing advancement it changes the two biggest aspects of the game, other than the world format.

With the new idea I proposed it could allow you to level up ad make a dynamic class based on how you want to play. If you want to be a sword user specifically then you'll be able to do that, if you want to focus on combat magic, there's that too.

I'd like to get something similar to CQs classes as they do work well, but I'd like it if the player was allowed to develop them as they see fit in order to custom tailor the character to their own playstyle. In this case I'm venturing into gameplay from Phantasy Star Universe which allowed semi-dynamic character progression.

I will also allow you to buy back your skill points if you'd like to re-assign your skills and play as a different character type, but at a cost of course, either based on an obtained item or the money you gain from enemies.

I'd like to make it a fun experience while also keeping players interested in it for the long run. The issue with CQ is that even if you pass wave 200 or so it's still the same game, nothing really changes except for the creature difficulty. I want the player to be able to develop with their progression so they can look back at what has happened.

PSO did this well, especially by giving you a goal to shoot for. There is an NPC called Kireek that helps you on your first quest in the game and he's level 36 while you're only level 1. It gives you something to aim for, but you also meet other characters that do the same but for the other classes. I'd like to have something similar to that where you can be given examples of how awesome you could be and then allow you to progress towards that end.

CQ doesn't really have anything like that.
Nov 1 2011, 11:43 am
I can understand why having control over how your character develops would be a good thing, but all the talk about experience and levels just makes it sound like a grind-fest where you just have to be a high level to win.

What El Wookie suggested sounds more interesting:
The enemies you found hard at the start of the game will still scare you as much at the end, and when you run into something new, oh Jesus.

I'm sure there's a way to make characters develop without requiring accumulation of money, levels, or experience and without growth taking the form of stat boosts.

PSO did this well, especially by giving you a goal to shoot for. There is an NPC called Kireek that helps you on your first quest in the game and he's level 36 while you're only level 1. It gives you something to aim for

This reminds me of an idea I had for Tiny Heroes, but didn't get to use. I wanted the world to seem big, but once the player was at the maximum level and had all abilities unlocked it'd feel smaller because they'd be able to move around more easily. Players would get increased movement speeds, jump heights, and class-specific movement abilities (ex: wall climbing) so they could make moves they couldn't when they started the game, allowing them to move between zones more easily.

Player growth doesn't just have to be strength and agility values increasing.
Nov 2 2011, 5:03 am
What would you then suggest as an advancement system that everyone can get into? o_o
Nov 2 2011, 5:42 am
I suggest anything that doesn't involve grinding.

The person playing the game grows as they play more and learn how to deal with different types of enemies and traps. You don't need to have in-game stats to have growth and advancement.
Nov 2 2011, 6:00 am
What examples of progression without grinding/killing monsters do you know of? Every game out there that has a progression system has it fitted into something having to do with killing monsters, otherwise it's just based on finding things that boost your abilities but those are my plans for weapons anyways.
Nov 2 2011, 7:56 am
There's a difference between grinding and killing. It sounds like killing monsters is going to be a big part of the game so it'd be tough for progression to not involve killing at all.

The character progresses by accomplishing things. There's nothing wrong with that idea, grinding is just a bad way to implement that idea. Grinding is growth based on boring accomplishments, like:

1. The character improves after killing 500 enemies.
2. The character improves after killing 1000 enemies.
3. The character improves after killing 2000 enemies.

Just make the accomplishments more interesting:

1. The character improves after killing 20 enemies in 15 seconds or less.
2. The character improves after completing level two.
3. The character improves after completing level two without dying.

Make the progression based on things that players will have fun doing. They might involve killing (some to greater extents than others) but they're much more interesting.
Nov 2 2011, 8:11 am
I see what you mean now. I don't intend to have players gain exp based on # of kills though. You'll gain exp for each creature, yes, but you'll gain more exp for bosses and bonus exp for lower times per level, which is why co-op will be encouraged as the areas can be completed even more quickly.

Your rewards will be based on general performance, not by how many creatures you kill. If you absolutely wanted to, in each room there will be a key that might require some platforming or enemy avoidance to obtain that will open the way to the next room, or you could kill all the enemies in a room. You could speed run an area, not killing any enemies and instead just collecting keys and making your way to the boss. Overall you may get more exp but it depends on how well you do.

Classes and leveling will give you benefits like combat or movement abilities so, if you want to grind away and just kill creatures in every room, you can, or you could spend your levels on speed and jumping ability, allowing you to avoid enemies and gain keys faster. Or you can use them on magic abilities to make you float/fly for short periods of time while you turn invisible temporarily to dodge enemies. Things like that. It'll be creative but challenging and it will hopefully be something that anyone can play.

I'll probably make it so that the boss can't be fought without all the players present so that people don't rush through and steal all the exp either by way of boss killing or something of the sort. The enemies will also probably be throttled during multiplayer so that stronger players will bring in stronger enemies, to encourage constant challenge while reducing power leveling for lower level characters with high level friends. It will be easier to level with a high level friend or with more party members, but nothing to the point that people do it exclusively in order to advance.

Mainly though it'll be about progression in the story/world as each area will be harder than the last, it'll hopefully be more about experiencing new sights, enemies, or bosses.

A lot of how the game will work is still up in the air, but I want it to be adaptive while challenging. There shouldn't be just one way to play but each way will be fun in it's own respect, depending on how you want to play it. That's what I'm aiming for.