Thanks, I actually fanned you earlier.

Empirez:Im actually glad to have these conversations. Up here in the far north although their are christians, I rarely come across a bible-literalist. Its refreshing to talk about these things, even if we will never agree.Its like flexing the intellectual muscles.

Boxcar wrote:

Thanks, I actually fanned you earlier.

Empirez:Im actually glad to have these conversations. Up here in the far north although their are christians, I rarely come across a bible-literalist. Its refreshing to talk about these things, even if we will never agree.Its like flexing the intellectual muscles.

How far north are you? I'm from MI.

Why? Because God simply wanted teaching to be a mans job just like he wanted bearing children to be a womans job.

That doesn't sound mysoginistic at all.

And if you're going to say "Jesus changed all that!"

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So right here (Matthew:22 37-40) Jesus says himself that there are only two true commandments. So why do you still follow the rest if Jesus changed it all?

Please don't tell me I don't know the bible, the main reason I don't believe in it is because I know it too well.

Bravo1 wrote:

Please don't tell me I don't know the bible, the main reason I don't believe in it is because I know it too well.

Lol, obviously you don't because you just ignored my request to backup your nonsense with scriptures and didn't.

What Jesus was most likely saying here was that love is where you must start to be a good person. Without love, there is no possible way to make it to Heaven. From love comes obedience because if you love God, you'll respect the rules he set for you. And if you love your neighbor, you won't lie to them, kill them, cheat on them, etc.

Commandments are found in the entire New Testament. If you're going to stop at 4 scriptures out of the book of Matthew and expect people to not pay attention to the several other books that contain rules for us to live by in the New Testament, I must assume two things:

1. You don't know the bible as well as you claim you do.

2. You're retarded.

But I'm going to stop right here and prove I know more than you. Up until now I haven't backed up what I've been saying with scriptures, but I'll take the time to yet again shut up another big mouth who thinks he knows it all:

We're supposed to follow the Sabbath?
Off the top of my head, I can name two examples where Jesus shows clearly we are not to do the sabbath anymore:

http://www.biblegateway.com/ passage/?search=Mark+2%3A23-28&version=KJV

The last scripture, 28, Jesus states that he is the Lord of the Sabbath ( he was talking about himself when he said "Son of man" ) meaning he gets to make the rules about it now. If hes picking corn on the Sabbath, and God said his son never committed a sin, then obviously there is no more sabbath for us because Jesus would have just done something evil.

Also, when Jesus healed the man with the infirmity in the book of John:

http://www.biblegateway.com/ passage/?search=John%205:5-9&version=KJV

Jesus heals him and tells him to walk carrying his bed ( which was considered labor ) on the sabbath. Again, God said his son never committed any sins and God made Jesus lord of the sabbath meaning he could change the rule. So if we are supposed to practice the sabbath, that means:

1. Jesus was a sinner for telling someone to carry their bed on the sabbath.

2. God is a liar for saying his son was perfect even though he committed a sin.

But the scriptures show that was not the case. They also show that Jesus came and did indeed change rules ( something you claim he did not ).

Next stupid assumption: Stoning?
http://www.biblegateway.com/ passage/?search=John%208:3-11&version=KJV

Here, Pharisees bring an adulterer before Jesus and suggest stoning her. He says that whoever is without sin should cast the first stone - since everyone was just as much of a sinner as she was, no one stoned her. He then told her to go and sin no more. You stated that it is commanded to us to stone people. Here, Jesus shows the exact opposite. Once again, Jesus changes a law.

Next: Eating Certain Meats?
http://www.biblegateway.com/ passage/?search=Mark%207:1-20&version=KJV

Here, Pharisees confront Jesus over not washing his hands. Later on, at verse 15 he goes onto say that nothing coming into a man can defile him ( like eating a certain meat? ) because food enters the belly, not the heart ( heart meaning your spirit, not the blood pumping organ ). And finally he says, at verse 20, the things that come out of a man is what defiles him. Meaning, people are evil because of the things they say, or the things they do and produce. Not because they eat without washing their hands, or as you claim, consume red meat. Another law changed.

Next: Praying While Not In A Church?
http://www.biblegateway.com/ passage/?search=Mark%2014:32&version=KJV

Jesus prays in Gethsemane. Which is a garden. Nuff said?

Boxcar: In Leviticus, God is giving laws to Moses. That is not Jesus teaching someone to do something. We live under everything Jesus commanded and everything else in the New Testament. We are not of the twelve tribes of Israel and therefore we do not follow their rules. We don't tithe, we are not forbidden to eat certain things, and we can shave.

But anyway, Bravo, please save yourself the embarrassment and me the trouble and stick to what you know. You either haven't read the book cover to cover, or you did but you have a very low level of comprehension.

You asked me for points in scripture when Jesus said the things that I had listed. Jesus never said those things, I never said that Jesus said those things.

I see now that you're entirely New Testament. Which is fine by me, New Testament is fine, it's mainly Old Testament scripture that is immoral. So, Considering I gave you obvious Old Testament rules and you assumed that I was saying that Jesus said those things, I guess you don't know the entire bible. The entire bible is the old and new testament together, if you just read the new testament then you haven't read the whole bible.

If you'd like to insult me some more, then you may, it's okay, it just shows me that I'm more like Jesus than you, even though I'm an atheist.

Why do I say that? "Do unto others"

I don't like being insulted, and I assume neither do you, so, I won't insult you, but you've insulted me. I've done something that Yeshua taught, while you disregard it with your insults and challenges.

That isn't an insult by the way, it's just an observation.

Also, I'm not going to argue over this with you anymore, once again, I'll be like your lord and turn the other cheek.

May you walk on warm sands. =)

EmpirezTeam wrote:

Toadfish: You talk as if only the Bible had the potential to be inhumane. People don't need someone to teach them to be inhumane - people are evil by nature. A person's morality that they invent themselves can be just as immoral as one they get from a religion. Just because you get your morality from somewhere other than the KJV bible doesn't mean everything you do is good. You think an atheist has never murdered or conducted an act of terrorism?

I am making the following distinction: an atheist acts due to a personal code of conduct, a Christian acts due to a divine code of conduct. As such an atheist does what he thinks is moral (whether it actually is moral is irrelevant), whereas a Christian does what he was commanded to by biblical law, regardless of the humanity or morality of it.

Nowhere did I say this means there are only humane atheists. However, I do claim, and this directly follows from what you've said earlier, that if an atheist is humane, then it is because he believes in humane values, whereas if a Christian is humane, it is either due to biblical law or because it doesn't conflict with biblical law. A humane atheist is inherently humane, but a humane Christian is externally humane. If God told a Christian to become inhumane, he would, without hesitation. An atheist has no such binding.

This isn't a criticism of Christianity or what have you, I'm simply pointing out the obvious in light of this discussion. Morality is a human concept and, assuming one is a Christian, is cancelled in front of divinity, whatever that entails.

EmpirezTeam wrote:

Bravo1 wrote:

Yada yada yada.

Thanks for proving you know nothing about the Bible. If you didn't want to get into a scriptural debate, you should refrain from typing nonsense stating that the Bible wants us to do this and that when it actually doesn't.

Also, turning the other cheek has to do with physical combat. It has nothing to do with debating. Jesus debated all his life and was not a sinner. But, I would back out of a debate too if I didn't know what I was talking about so I don't blame you.

Honestly if you want to win a debate against a Christian, you should speak with Jamckell. He knows next to nothing about the book just like you.

You're so silly. =P

Since you want me to prove you wrong, I'll oblige.

What you said was made up a list of rules and said you had to do those things to be moral in God's eyes. You never said Jesus said those things, correct, but that's the problem. If they were, then Jesus would have been teaching it and we would have scriptural examples. You had none despite the fact you're someone who supposedly has read the entire book.

1. God !=Jesus. Jesus and God are two separate entities. Similar? Yes, I'll give you that, but the same? No. As a result if I say "God commands [A]" and you retort with: "Jesus did not command [A]", then you are disregarding what I said and making a random statement about what someone else said it regards to "Command [A]".

2. You wanted scripture examples of the commands I had given. Okay:


Death to disrespectful children:
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for working on the sabbath:
'I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Misogyny:
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (1 Timothy 2-12)

Don't pray in public
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.(Mathhew 6:5)

You can rape her, then keep her:
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT) If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

No Shaving!:
"'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. (Leviticus 19:27)

I didn't make them up.

Oh, the eating meat thing was Jewish law, sorry, sometimes this stuff mixes together. (Whoops!)

You two seem to be missing the point of what I've said. You're trying to argue whether the bible is moral through arguing about what laws are actually written in the bible. But like I said, EmpirezTeam, being a Christian, is of the position that what's written in the bible is how one should behave, regardless of actual content. Whether it's "love thy neighbour as thyself" or "obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear" changes absolutely nothing. The content of the laws themselves doesn't matter; them being commanded by the bible does. If something like "stone women to death at every opportunity" was written in the bible, a Christian would be just as inclined to follow this law as he would any other law spoken by God.

So it absolutely doesn't matter if slavery is promoted or whatever since this does not change Empirez's moral position. The fact "love thy neighbour" is divine law rather than "kill, loot and plunder" is completely irrelevant and arbitrary.

Bravo, please read as this is the last time I'll type it:

I'm talking about what WE'RE REQUIRED TO DO. I am fully aware of what went on in the Old Testament. Stoning, sabbath, shaving etc. was under the LAW OF MOSES.

You said God wanted us to do that to be moral, which was a lie. You then asked me if I had done any of those things because I was supposed to. That's why posted all those links - to prove otherwise. Saying that me or anyone should be doing those things NOW is a lie. We don't live under the law of Moses.

If you had said God wanted people to do that while under the law of Moses, fine, there would be no debate right now. This is why I asked you to find examples of Jesus teaching it and there are none.

You also missed the entire point of the prayer in public scripture. Jesus said that to mean don't try and put on a show and do things just to be seen. I can pray in my backyard or on my porch, that's no problem. But if I pray or try to have church service at, say in front of McDonalds, it's pretty obvious I'm doing it there for attention. It's not about doing it in a temple or church building, it's about not doing it just to be seen and noticed.

Also I am fully aware that God and Jesus are different. You'll never find me saying they are the same. I'm actually surprised you know they aren't the same - ask the majority of Christians and they will say they are.