The point is, you two shouldn't have brought up biblical laws in the first place. EmpirezTeam has aptly defended his being "moral by divine standards" by explaining he follows the word of God regardless of what it actually is. He has also admitted in his premise that he is not humane, or moral by human standards. The focus, from the beginning, should have been whether humans should behave according to a human code of conduct, or a divine code of conduct; the actual content of the code has absolutely no bearing on this discussion.
Edit: Okay, so he isn't a Christian, but he should keep pretending he's a Christian for the sake of this discussion and so that I'll have an easier time writing what I mean.
Moses spoke as Gods middle man. So those were Gods commands, it even says it in the bible that it's what God wants, not what Moses wants... So, no, I'm not lying.
Also, the slavery thing? Yeah, that was in the New Testament. | |
Bravo1 wrote:
Moses spoke as Gods middle man. So those were Gods commands, it even says it in the bible that it's what God wants, not what Moses wants... So, no, I'm not lying. Like I said, I'm not typing it again. If you can't understand the simple fact that we aren't under the exact same laws of Moses, even after the several examples and links I provided you with, there is no hope for you and I pray that no one gets their biblical information from you. Also, the slavery thing? Yeah, that was in the New Testament. All I know about slavery is that the bible still teaches slaves to be obedient to their masters. It still falls under love and peace. Let's say I was an evil guy and I captured you as my slave. God doesn't want you plotting to kill me or to burn down the plantation. That's violence and vengeance - things he doesn't want us doing at all. He wants you to remain following his rules no matter what type of situation you're in. If I'm a slave, I'm not supposed to crack my master upside the head with a wine bottle whenever I get the chance. It's just teaching love no matter what predicament you're in or no matter how bad someone else is treating or abusing you. If you return evil for evil, God will punish both of you. If you fight hatred with love, only the person with hatred is punished. Now, this is in no way justifying slavery. Jesus didn't have slaves, his apostles didn't have slaves, and neither should I or anyone else. And if God is "evil" by your standards for expecting us to LOVE, there is something wrong with you. | |
Like I said, I'm not typing it again. If you can't understand the simple fact that we aren't under the exact same laws of Moses, even after the several examples and links I provided you with, there is no hope for you and I pray that no one gets their biblical information from you. I said if you were going to follow the bible then you had to abide by those commands, those commands are in the bible. Now, if you're going to follow only the New Testament, then no, you don't have to do any of that stuff. You misunderstood what I said. I never said that if you're Christian that you should do that, I just said that it's what God said you should do, which is true, God did command those things. Those aren't the laws of Moses, those were the laws of God, Moses was just his mediator. If you follow the teachings of Jesus, like I said before, I'm okay with you. But if you want to follow Gods law, then you'd have to abide by all the Old Testament stuff as well, because that is still Gods law. That's what I had said before. | |
Toad, I really don't see the point you're trying to make.
"If the bible said to be evil, every Christian would be evil" is like me saying "If the theory of evolution stated that we would eventually become flying hippopotamuses, people are stupid for believing it". The theory of evolution doesn't state that, so it's a waste of time to even mention it. We could go all day with "what if" - it would get us nowhere. | |
Bravo1 wrote:
Like I said, I'm not typing it again. If you can't understand the simple fact that we aren't under the exact same laws of Moses, even after the several examples and links I provided you with, there is no hope for you and I pray that no one gets their biblical information from you. Those commandments are in the Bible, and are there because they were given to Moses so we could know what MOSES and the 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL were living like. Things like tithing, sacrificing goats, stoning, shaving and the sabbath have nothing to do with me, a person living in the New Testament. Now, if you're going to follow only the New Testament, then no, you don't have to do any of that stuff. You misunderstood what I said. I try to follow what Jesus and his apostles taught which is found in the New Testament, yes. If I was born into one of the twelve tribes of Israel thousands of years ago, then yes, I would have been following those rules you listed. That is not the case, however, and you seem to not understand that even when this is like my 10th time typing it. I never said that if you're Christian that you should do that, I just said that it's what God said you should do, which is true, God did command those things. Those aren't the laws of Moses, those were the laws of God, Moses was just his mediator. Oh yeah, there were no laws of Moses? Why does God say it here then? http://www.biblegateway.com/ passage/?search=Malachi%204:4&version=KJV Clearly, he states here that there was a "law of Moses" and that it was for all of ISRAEL. In other words, all the Jews that made up the 12 tribes of Israel. I am not a Jew, nor was I born a son of someone from the 12 tribes of Israel and therefore the laws don't apply to me. Here is another example: http://www.biblegateway.com/ passage/?search=Numbers+18:26&version=KJV God clearly distinguishes his people from everyone else. That's why kept saying "children of Israel" because it's not talking to anyone outside the "children of Israel". He gave those laws to Jews, not Gentiles. When Jesus came, it was different. He preached the word of God to people of ALL nations, not just Jews in Israel. You can't find a scripture of Jesus saying that his teachings were only for Jews. And neither can you find a scripture of God saying that the laws he gave to the 12 tribes of Israel were for people other than the 12 tribes of Israel. Instead, you find the exact opposite. [Edit] I think you misunderstand me when I saw "law of Moses". What I simply mean by that is everything God told Moses to tell his people to do. I don't mean those are laws Moses came up with himself. Those are God's laws, but at the same time, he only gave those laws to the 12 tribes of Israel. You can't say they apply to me because I am not of the 12 tribes of Israel. It's as simple as that. | |
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments God says it himself that he's the one who commanded the law. "which I (God) commanded" Sure, he labels it as one of Moses' laws, but he's the one who made the law. I mean, you can have a state law like "Don't park under a tree." and it can be a "Florida Law" but it doesn't separate the fact that it's Florida's Congress that made the law. Also, I don't know why you're arguing about the tribes, I never said Christians were not Gentiles, I'm talking about like Roman Catholics. I don't think you realize then I never aimed any of my comments directly at you I meant "you" as in "the religious". Just agree with me on this: Are the laws of the old testament horrific and immoral?" If you say "No" then you may as well follow those rules yourself. We're not talking about Christianity I was never talking about Christianity. | |
You say that just because a command is in the Bible, I must keep it. That's not true. What is true is that the Old Testament actually does matter. What I don't need to do anymore is follow the commandments laid out in the Torah for the Israelites (Genesis-Deuteronomy). In fact, Israelites of today don't need to follow it either. That's part of what Christ did on the cross.
Think of the Old Testament law as like a patchwork, or cover-up, for the sin of the Israelites in order for God to be with them. It's important to know the law of the Old Testament in order to know what Christ means to us (his birth, his life, his death, his resurrection). The Israelites needed the old law because they could not escape their sin. Neither can we, but we don't need the old law because of Christ. That is why I'm a Christ follower. Also, you were wrong in saying that Jesus != God. Jesus and God are one, of the same spirit. While Jesus was separate as a man, he was one with God in spirit. "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." (John 14:9) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." (John 8:58) This means that Jesus not only changed the law for his followers, but followers of God, because they are one in the same. | |
And that's fine, I'm trying to say that God is immoral, Jesus on the other hand, he fixed shit, Jesus is moral. Jesus is a good guy.
Just don't sit there and tell me that God is good when he's done atrocious things tho the human race. | |
What kind of atrocious things has he done to the human race?
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Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
God killed a guy with a lion for not attacking the prophet. that's a small case though a larger case: Because of one city disobeying his commands God flooded the world, killing millions of innocents and only saving Noah and his followers. (which was a very small percentage of the population) You can also count all the animals he killed, except for the two of each that were on the Ark. | |
Bravo1 wrote:
Just agree with me on this: Are the laws of the old testament horrific and immoral?" No, and most of what was done back then is still done today just in a different way. Instead of throwing stones on people, they're restrained in a chair with a sponge on their head and are electrocuted until their brain is fried. And people justify it - including atheists. So before you call God immoral or barbaric for doing it, make sure you recognize the fact that people just like you are pro death penalty. | |
The man was killed for not obeying God, which happened a good few times in the old testament. Without Jesus' sacrifice to make them Holy, the Israelites were forced to keep God's commands. If they didn't, God wanted absolutely nothing to do with them. God probably knew that man would never come around anyways, and it also served as a good reminder to everyone to obey God. I'm going to guess that if the man obeyed and striked the prophet, something would have gotten in the way and stopped him, like when Abram almost sacrificed Isaac.
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So if I disrespect my mother I'm going to get the electric chair?
Instead of throwing stones on people, they're restrained in a chair with a sponge on their head and are electrocuted until their brain is fried. And people justify it - including atheists. So before you call God immoral or barbaric for doing it, make sure you recognize the fact that people just like you are pro death penalty. I do not condone murder in any way shape or form. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. That means freedom to choose when you die. (accidental deaths excluded of course, can't really d anything about that) | |
@Fugsnarf
So basically you're saying: God: "Obey me or die" He sounds like a really nice guy. | |
...What the poop. Seriously. I'm gone for 6 hours and come back to find that this place has jumped from 12 comments to 75. I should've totally added a poll.
...Wait. This isn't religious. Other than some people interperetting this as the Mark of the Beast, how did this turn into a discussion about God? | |
Dude, I don't really know, but I just want it to stop o__o
I see these people as my friends and they're all getting angry (especially EmpirezTeam). I'm not trying to upset anyone I'm just voicing my opinion -_- | |
My gosh. It's always ET, Fug, and Caution against an assload of athiest. Make your own blog if you want to discuss God.
Owait. I'll do it myself. | |
I'm not a Christian. :)