Scumbag God: makes humans, knowing they're going to break his rules; punishes them for it anyways.
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why would anyone need one of these if your kid gets lost then it means that you have one less mouth to feed and now you can spend all their college savinings on vidya games
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Bravo1 wrote:
Scumbag God: makes humans, knowing they're going to break his rules; punishes them for it anyways. That's a horrible... not sure what to call it - definition? That is assuredly applicable to basically anyone with any sort of power. Are all parents scumbags too for grounding their child when they find out their child pushed another child off the monkey bars which caused them to break their leg? I think you need to re-think a few things. | |
Boxcar wrote:
3)Eternity is a long time. There are crimes that could warrant thousands of years of punishment in my eyes, but really, can anything you do deserve eternal punishment? Especially something as trivial as having same-sex relations, ignoring whatever else you do in your life, good or bad. That's not the point. Everybody makes bad decisions. The point is that you are either with God or against him. Those against him cannot be with him. No single sin causes eternal damnation. In fact, not even a lifetime of evil can if you choose to follow Christ and become reborn. That is what Christians believe. | |
Fugsnarf wrote:
Boxcar wrote: I suppose you're right in that regard. Good or evil doesn't really matter in Christianity, as long as you're willing to be an indentured servant. Whats more disturbing than that system is that you can understand that and still believe that Christianity is good for the world. You would endorse a system that allows someone to commit horrendous crimes, and in their last gasp of life, repent and earn eternal paradise, yet someone who lives their life doing nothing but helping others will be punished eternally for a lack of belief? That system is so twisted, that if it was true, you couldn't claim the christian god as just by any means that humans have ever lived by. Maybe that's justice on the Celestial scale, but its certainly not in humans best interest. | |
Boxcar wrote:
You would endorse a system that allows someone to commit horrendous crimes, and in their last gasp of life, repent and earn eternal paradise, yet someone who lives their life doing nothing but helping others will be punished eternally for a lack of belief? That's a very good point, and not uncommon for people to bring up as to why they think God would be unjust in that regard. Our point as Christians is that all sin is equal in the eyes of God. What matters is dedicating your life to Christ and gaining the ability to be Holy and be with God. In that aspect, all peoples have the ability to gain salvation regardless of their crimes (which we don't have the right to judge anyways as we are all sinners). It sounds like it could be abused, but if your change in life isn't sincere, it won't change a thing in your salvation. As far as I am concerned from a Christian perspective, Christ saved me from eternal damnation by allowing me to be Holy through his death, so the least I can do is follow him. | |
Like I stated before, at this point its just a personal opinion. People are willing to excuse these moral injustices in the hope that it is somehow moral on a higher level.
I don't care if someone is sincere about repenting. That doesn't undo all the pain they could cause, and its just not beneficial for people to think its a viable way out. I cant see many situations were it wouldn't be "sincere". If you thought you were about to be punished eternally, most likely you are damn serious about getting out of it, and are going to REALLY mean it when you say I'm sorry.All I see this doing is releasing people of any real moral responsibility. And the idea of hell existing and an all knowing god is just sick and twisted. In that case, before you are even born it knows your fate. How can it be morally acceptable to create something, knowing exactly what it would do, and then punish it for said crime. As said by Castiel, " Freedom is a length of rope. God wants you to hang yourself with it." | |
Boxcar wrote:
There are crimes that could warrant thousands of years of punishment in my eyes, That right there is why you're an atheist. Not because science has a solid explanation for how we got here ( Big Bang? lawl ) but because you've invented your own definition of right and wrong and it conflicts with God. I'm sure if the Bible said homosexuals were ok, and murder was fine, and divorce was a good thing, you wouldn't be so adamant about trying to make sense out of your beliefs. Your arguments show you have more of a problem with who God is than the lack of evidence that he really exists. Which is really stupid. It's like me saying evolution is false because Darwin cheated on his wife, had six toes on his left foot, and couldn't hold his bowels. Besides, I've been there, done this. Next you'll lecture me on how God created evil in the first place, how everyone shouldn't be blamed for Adam eating a piece of fruit, "Can God make a burrito too hot for him to consume?", yada yada yada. Been doing this for years bro. But it's still fun responding to the same dumb questions over and over, so here it goes: 1) God did see it coming. But he also spoke it to happen. Take Revelations for example: because it's written in the Bible for there to be a "mark of the beast", there HAS to be a mark of the beast. Yes it's evil and yes people will die, starve, etc. and yes God knows it's coming but he declared it would happen before he even began creating anything. It may seem ridiculous to me and you, but that's because humans aren't comparable to God. As you said yourself, "in your eyes" all this is stupid. In God's eyes it isn't. God wouldn't be much of a God if he thought and acted exactly like us. We're not supposed to understand everything he does - it's just not possible. 2) God seeks vengeance to keep us from doing it. For instance, if I were to kill your family, God would rather you forgive me and keep the peace and allow God to deal with me rather than taking things into your own hands and trying to enforce the famous "eye for an eye" rule and kill my relatives. Do you know how nice the world would be if everyone did that? Simply forgave people? Consider gang members - their entire life revolves around vengeance. A blood kills a crip, the crips kill 5 bloods. After 5 bloods die, 10 crips get killed. And it just repeats itself. When you seek vengeance yourself, it gets you no where. When God seeks vengeance, it's an entirely different story. 3) I believe Jesus used tares as an example ( which is just another word for "weeds" in the bible ). A farmer doesn't go out to his field to collect the vegetables and the weeds destroying his garden - he separates them. The vegetables are good to eat, the weeds are good for nothing and so they're pulled up and thrown away. It's the same way to God. When we die, God doesn't group his obedient followers in with people who blasphemed their entire lives. The good are rewarded, and the bad are essentially thrown away because they didn't follow God's rules, didn't help anyone else follow God's rules, and basically served no purpose just like a weed in a farmer's garden. Again, an eternity in punishment may not be something we can comprehend or enjoy thinking about, but God doesn't think like a human. If he did, he wouldn't be much of a God. | |
CauTi0N wrote:
Bravo1 wrote: If I teach my child to push kids in the park and then he pushes a kid in the park, why should I punish him? If God made us, and he knows what he made us into, then why should we be punished for doing what we were made to do? Just to be clear, I'm an Atheist, but I'm only an atheist because I read the bible from cover to cover. It's kind of sad that I'm more kind and forgiving than God. | |
I'm quite a believer in knowing as little about my neighbours (and vice versa) as reasonably needs to be.
This would also extend to my children, particularly more-so as they are teenagers and growing up. They are individuals and I think I'd be impacting pretty heavily on their individual sense of freedom if I insisted on having such a procedure done to my children. A great deal of trust is about an understanding in my opinion. The understanding in this case would be that my child does not do really stupid things, or that should they do them, they bear the consequences appropriately, and in return I do not bother them about where they are, what they are doing etc, I respect their choices and intellectual prowess, essentially. Any talk of the risk of abduction or their being a rape / murder victim is remarkably rare, by statistics, so I can't really personally justify such a measure on those grounds. At a very young age I should be watching them myself as part of my parental duties, and at an older age I should have the ability to trust them to look after themselves. If anything bad does happen, then clearly that is tragic and I would be heartbroken, but that is just how life goes. | |
Boxcar wrote:
I don't care if someone is sincere about repenting. That doesn't undo all the pain they could cause, and its just not beneficial for people to think its a viable way out. That's exactly the way I feel about atheists. Why would an atheist not kill someone if they believed all their life that there was no punishment for it after they died? Sure, probably to avoid jail, but take things like Virginia Tech into consideration where the person suicides to avoid that. | |
Bravo1 wrote:
If God made us, and he knows what he made us into, then why should we be punished for doing what we were made to do? Because every day you wake up is another chance God is giving you to correct yourself. Let's continue with your parenting example: if your child pushed a kid, you would discipline them. That's what the Bible is for - it's a tool we're supposed to use to read and live by, instead of continuing to do wrong, or in this case, push kids around in parks. Everyone is going to do something wrong, but think about it: if God killed everyone the moment they committed their first sin, no one would be alive right now. You're not punished because you're made evil. You're punished because you're made evil but never made any attempt to become good. Just to be clear, I'm an Atheist, but I'm only an atheist because I read the bible from cover to cover. It's kind of sad that I'm more kind and forgiving than God. Hah, I'd like to put that forgiveness of yours to the test. $50 says if I do a drive-by your house killing your family, you'll be all over me for revenge like white on rice. Yet God let people nail his son to a cross instead of striking them down the moment they even thought about doing such a thing. You guys are funny. You're smarter, more loving, more forgiving, more everything than God yet the moment you make a mistake you'll excuse it with "I'm not perfect". It's hilarious. | |
Okay, I'll answer your question. "Why don't atheists just break the rules, there's no punishment, right?"
How about this: If God himself, not Jesus, not an avatar, God, the one and only, came down and told you: "Hey, after all these years of being humble and loyal to me, I've decided to give you a blank check You can do whatever you want, break all the rules, it doesn't matter, you'll still go to heaven." Would you start killing people and stealing and all that other stuff? If you answered "Yes": You have no morality. You do not care about other human beings. If you answered "No": Congratulations. You are moral and a good person, even without God to make sure you keep in line. Atheists, like myself, would answer "No" so, I'm moral and good without God. Virgina Tech kids were Atheists, yes, but they killed people out of anger, they were morally inept. Not everyone holds the same morals. Just look at the Crusades. Millions upon Millions of people killed all "in the name of god", Does that sound moral? What about 9/11? Those were religious extremists that flew those planes, they had god, they had punishment, and they still did it. Do you honestly believe that just because you're religious it makes you a good person? Fuck no. Each person makes their own impact on this world, it's up to you and you alone whether or not you're good. I don't need someone to tell me "Don't be bad!" I'll be a good person on my own thank you, and you know what, I contribute to charities, I do volunteer work, I help out my fellow man and woman. Then you look at most religious people, for example: Pat Robertson. This guy is a millionaire, he doesn't donate to charity and he even owns an operation mining diamonds in Africa. These operations use slave labor to get things done. Do you really think being religious makes you a good person? Look at Bill Gates now, he's an Atheist, and he's donated millions to charities each and every year, but he's not a good person because he doesn't believe in God? Don't get me wrong, there are good people in every religion, and there are good Atheists as well, but saying that you can't be good without having a higher power such as God is just being ignorant. | |
Perhaps you missed the part in my post that said," Assuming for arguments sake that the bible is true". I am arguing against idea that the christian god is a paragon of morality based on the bible, not his existence in this discussion.
All I can argue morality from is the point of a human, because that's what I am. I am saying from a human point of view, the christian god is not in our best interest. You are willing to excuse acts from a god that you wouldn't from a human, and that's where the problem lies. Its O.K for God to f*** somebody up, but its not o.k for us to do it. Its o.k for God to condemn someone, but not for us. This sort of thing relates back to the death penalty here on earth. A state enforced murder is considered o.k, because its the government. But if you have big brother endorsing murder, the underlings will assume that this must be the true tool for justice. Therefore the statistically higher crime rates in countries with the death penalty then those without. Lastly, I addressed this earlier. An all knowing god and hell both existing is the ultimate slap in the face to human morality. Not only is your destiny already known before you get a crack at life, you will be punished for these foreseen "crimes". And "crimes" can range from murder to simply not believing in something. And guess what, both punishments are the same! God knows he's gonna toss you in a pit of fire before you're even born! Honestly I'm perturbed at how you act like this is a resolved issue, and how everyone who isn't christian is just silly. If things were as simple as "the same dumb questions over and over" it would be an extreme minority that still resists. Much like those who believe in the reptilian government takeover. That's exactly the way I feel about atheists. Why would an atheist not kill someone if they believed all their life that there was no punishment for it after they died? Sure, probably to avoid jail, but take things like Virginia Tech into consideration where the person suicides to avoid that. You think its impossible to feel any love for other humans without god? You think that just because we don't believe in a supernatural being we are incapable of forming relationships, and wanting to live a life of peace and fullness? If anything, atheism inspires you to want to live a life of peace, because its the only one you get, and afterwards you sink into non-existence. Not shoot up someplace and off yourself afterwards. We are capable of understanding other humans feel the same, and dont want to harm them. | |
Bravo: Moral by whose standards? As far as I'm concerned, God declared what was good and evil, not me or my parents or Joe down the street or Abraham Lincoln. YOU would consider me immoral for doing whatever I wanted, but God, the person who created me in the first place, wouldn't. Jesus teaches that you shouldn't be concerned about what a person thinks of you or fear someone who can kill you. He said fear the one who can destroy your body and soul and put you in hell for an eternity.
It's like if a random person saw you smoking and said "Put that out sir, you're being a bad person by polluting the air". I doubt you'd feel "OMG this person says I'm being evil, I must stop smoking this instant!" You basically wouldn't care about their standards. The same way I don't care if you would see me as evil in that situation. It's not about my standards or your standards, it's about God's standards. And actually those people flying planes into buildings were promised virgins when they die. Had they been taught they would be thrown into hellfire for an eternity, 9/11 might not have happened. | |
Boxcar: Of course you can be good as long as you convince yourself that God's definition of good means nothing. I can convince myself that using babies for target practice is good and live my entire being a good person. Why? Because my definition of good is to do so.
It's the same thing you're doing. You make up your own good and evil and say "I'm a good person by my standards". I'd be the most innocent, holy angel right now if I was judging myself by my own standards. But I'm not. I don't compromise or cherry pick what I feel is right and wrong to justify everything I do. | |
Moral by human standards.
I treat people the way I want to be treated: with dignity, kindness, and respect. If I see someone smoking and I don't like it, I'll go somewhere else, why? Because I'm not a dick. If you really want to be moral under Gods description then you must: Never work on a sunday or be put to death, never disrespect your parents or be put to death, never let a woman teach you, never let a woman tell you what to do, never pray outside of a church, never eat red meat on a sunday, you must never shave. ad for an extra bit of crazy: If you rape a girl, you can keep her by paying her father 50 silver. This is all in the bible. These are all things that are commanded of you in the bible. (Except the rape thing, that's a circumstantial case) So tell me, have you ever done any of these things? Out of the huge list, I'd say yes to at least one. You've already lost Gods favor under his crazy fucking rules. OH wait, that's right, he's more moral right?? Honestly? Who's nicer: The guy who says: "Break one tiny rule and you'll burn for eternity!!" Or the guy who says: "Don't be a dick, or I'll stop talking to you." <_< | |
Also, the definition of "Good" and "Bad" are arbitrary, meaning that they're pointless unless in a specific context.
Sharks often kill and eat their brother and sisters while still in the womb. Are they evil? No? If you killed your brother or sister, would you be considered evil? By a lot of people, yes. That's because: "good" "bad" "right" and "wrong" only apply to humans and are only used between us. | |
Actually that's the christian side of things. The bible is used to justify their behavior.They have an ultimate guide that actually, nobody lives by these days because some of the things the bible condones is ridiculous, like slavery, rape, and condemns tattoos etc.
In the real world, there is no ultimate moral book of right and wrong. Things aren't just black and white. I live by how I know to keep the peace, and not infringe on others rights, which is more than god can say. | |
1)Seen it coming because he is all knowing.
2)Vengeance seems like such a petty emotion for an all powerful being, adding to the fact he knew it would happen before hand, and did nothing to stop it.
3)Eternity is a long time. There are crimes that could warrant thousands of years of punishment in my eyes, but really, can anything you do deserve eternal punishment? Especially something as trivial as having same-sex relations, ignoring whatever else you do in your life, good or bad.
As far as people, they have always been selfish and vindictive. Just because people in the past couldn't be easily legally divorced doesn't mean they didn't act as if they were.