How would you define a rip?
Would you define a brand new project, of the same genre of another game, with nothing to do with the other game, except the fact it's the same genra, a rip?
I define a rip as, downloaded code, which has been only edited a little bit and then clamed to be your own.
If I was to go out, and make a DBZ game, using nothing but my own skills, support from the Dev forums and icon contributions from friends, would
that game still be a "Zeta Rip"? I personally, don't think so.
What if, I was to not only make this DBZ game, but include things, that actually, no other DBZ game has?
Say, instead of punching a macro'd Attack verb, or pressing macro'd kamehame ha verbs. I made this DBZ game, turn based.
And incorperated a battle system somewhat like Final Fantasy. And finally, give it an orignal and catch title. Would my game still be classed as a rip?
I suppose my key question falls down to be, does a game, that you programed yourself, poored your soul into and included everything you could
to make players happy, that just happens to be the same genre of another game, be classed as rip? My answer, is "hell no, are you bloody insane?"
What's yours?
(No, I'm not making a DBZ game with a catchy title and a Final Fantasy like Battle System. Though it might actually be interesting, seeing someone do it.)
Apr 18 2006, 3:52 am
|
|
Lunaofthemoon
 |
A rip is something that you call my games when you log into them. At least that's what I've seen >_>
|
Genre.
And woah, man, my punctuation alarms are going off here. Say, instead of punching a macro'd Attack verb, or pressing macro'd kamehame ha verbs. I made this DBZ game, turn based. No. Say, instead of punching a macroed Attack verb or pressing macroed Kamehameha verbs, I made this DBZ game turn based? | |
Rip = Game that closely emulates another game, on purpose... or has ripped code.
| |
That's where you're wrong Uub. A game that closely emulats another game, what if the genre of the game is limited, and you can only do that. Say for instance, Pong. If You and I both made seperate pong games, and mine was released two days after yours, is my game a rip of yours?
| |
I fail to see how uubs pong game would be realesed two days before yours tib, but yeah a game that has the same genre doesnt automaticly make it a rip its only a rip if it has the same icons , features and code
| |
I don't mean the genre being limited, though, I mean intentionally emulating another game as much as you can.
| |
intentionaly making a game to be a fully made clone... hmmmm see thats where it becoems weird its the same basic idea with all the same things but nothign is exactly ripped except the ideas.....i dont kwno if you woudl call that a rip or a clone
| |
That brings me back to DBZ games.
Dragon Ball Zeta has transformations and all the other piddly crap the next DBZ game has out there. If I made my DBZ game with Transformations and included most of the other piddly crap, but I kept true to not only programming it myself, improving it myself and otherwise setting the standereds myself, would it still be a rip? Lets face it, all DBZ games have transformations, they follow closely to the TV show in general. Lincoln is actually for once, right. It would be a clone. | |
It seems that the only (and incorrect) benchmark for determining a rip is chronological. Typically, people accused of "ripping" games have released one similar in concept to another that preceded it chronologically, because for some reason the creator of the game with the earlier epoch seems to think they hold all the cards (though, almost everyone who's deluded themself into thinking they were first, weren't at all). The true way to determine how "ripped" a game is, is the origin of the source code that makes it run; the only problem with this method, though, is that not many people will surrender their source code for analysis (most because they have something to hide, others because the act will spawn copied source rips).
The concept of "ripping ideas" has little merit, yet so many people are accused of doing it; even Incursion could be considered an "idea rip" because the original concept of the game comes from the board game Risk (but onoz! Risk precedes Incursion chronologically!). The entire concept behind "ripping" is weakly based on circumstance. Make sure your next game doesn't have a "say" verb in it, or you'll be a ripper! | |
It's only a Zeta rip if a portion (or more) of the Zeta source is copied. That's the only qualification. If you created a game from scratch and intentionally recreated everything about Zeta that made it what it was, it wouldn't be a rip.
According to some, it may suck but it wouldn't be a rip. ;) | |
That's the way Sarm. You've got the right idea =P
There just seems to be so much popping up about rips here, that I decided to put my own thought of it into perspective. My old opinion was everywhere. Not I've set it firmly in the ground. And I wonder who will have the same idea as me =P | |
I think there is some confusion because of the Zeta incident. Basically, Zeta rips sucked so people concluded that DBZ games that suck must be rips, which is an erroneous conclusion. In fact DBZ sucks, and games in that genre are doomed (;-) j/k!).
As pointed out, a rip is a game that uses another's source code without permission. Graphics are also frequently ripped. Setting a game in the same genre or using identical themes may not be terribly creative, but it in no way makes the game a rip. | |
Jmurph wrote:
a rip is a game that uses another's source code without permission. Graphics are also frequently ripped. Setting a game in the same genre or using identical themes may not be terribly creative, but it in no way makes the game a rip. [I'm guessing you'd classify stealing of music files as ripping, too.] Are code, images, and music all that is considered work? What about liturature, plot, and ideas in general? I put a great deal of work into designing the theme and feel of my games, and I do not appreciate when my hard work is taken by others without permission. I remember when I first started work on Peregrine City, someone logged into the game for 5min, and thought they had the whole thing figured out. When I woke up the next morning, they had a new game on the hub with every last bit of functionality that Peregrine City had. Both the code and icons (neither have I ever released) were new, but the entire thing was a cheap rip-off. [As a side note, the rip failed as I started fleshing out my game; they only saw Peregrine City as a compilation of assorted features.] Does being in the same genre make something a rip? No. However, ripping ideas can also classify the game as a rip. Consider these examples: "This game's combat system is great! My DBZ game is more about building, but how could I make a combat system like this that would be good in my game? Perhaps the game's owner will let me use some of her combat code." "This game's combat system is great! This other game has a great transformation system! I can code both of them, plus this other great system from a third game, add in my own DBZ icons, and I'll have a great game! Not only that, but I'll make mine better." The first person is attempting to take code from another person's game to use in their own. However, they see their own game as a building game that could benefit from a combat system like the one they've seen. The second person is intent on doing their own programming and art, but only views their game as a collection of great features; there's no core aspect of gameplay. The first is legit, the second is a rip-off of ideas from three separate games. | |
I had a long discussion with someone about the ability to rip ideas. It is possible for someone to have the same idea as someone else. Mobius and I do it often. Which is partly the reason people think we're the same person, dispite the whole, other side of the world thing.
It'd be very hard for someone to recreate an idea or story line of a game so easilly. Because the orignal writer has unmade plans for the story line to be built on. Which makes their game stronger already. I know how irritating it is, to have an idea, start building on it, and in less then twenty minutes have my idea stolen and someone trying to recreate it with a different name. But using the same layout and design. It is anoying, but never-the-less. In theory, it can only match up to a clone, because it's impossible to clame an idea as yours only. The only thing to do in those situations, is ban the user and work your ass off to not only improve your idea, but make your game so much better, the other has no option but to fold. That's the best way to teach a theif. Being the administrator of an icon trading game, it's my job to also try and stop users from ripping icons. We've built a rather large black list of icon rippers <.< We've all felt the irritation and frustration to create a beautiful work of art and have it taken, raped and released by others. It's a big pain in the ass. The only thing that sucks is, it's impossible to get them all. The only thing you can keep safe on BYOND is your source. By taking safe means, for instance. If you hire a mapper: only give them the source which puts the basic turfs on the map and the icons themselves. Then all you lose is icons that will be ripped anyways. Leave the more advanced code for your own hard drive. But that's a given. What sucks is, spriters icons are just as important to them as programmers source codes, and icons are just too easy to steal =( But that's off topic. As long as we agree that a game of the same genre, featuring some of the same features as another game, but is 100% orignal programming, isn't a rip. Then I'm pleased =P | |
If you hire a mapper:only give them the source which puts the basic turfs on the map and the icons themselves. Then all you lose is icons that will be ripped anyways. Leave the more advanced code for your own hard drive. But that's a given. A creative mapper won't need any source code or icons. Give me a Dmp file with some stuff blotted on it and I can rearrange it any way I'd like. :D I find it pretty fun to do that. I can make my own Proelium maps without the official editor (though I DO need it to convert the Dmp into the map savefile). | |
I would agree that that stealling music generally falls into the category of "ripping", yes.
You have to draw the line somewhere, though. I agree that stealing specific concepts is deplorable. But similar plots and ideas is to be expected. There is nothing new under the sun, as the phrase goes, and many plots are recycled endlessly to the point that you have recognizable archetypes and motifs. No big deal. It's when they start stealing specific additions or new interpretations that it gets shakey. Take for example Star Wars. The first movie is basically a reinterpretation of the popular tale of a young boy who grows to be a hero under the tutelage of a wise man after tragedy befalls the boy's family. It comes complete with tyrannical ruler, dark enforcer, and stalwart allies. Nothing terribly creative here. Yet the specifics and additions are what make it original. Jedi powers, robots mixed in a primitive environment, a bio-mechanical dark knight, light sabers, etc. are what make it unique. To apply it to your example IainPeregrine, I doubt you would oppose anyone who wanted to make a game that was in a similar vein as yours, it's the copying of unique elements into a flat imitation that I think probably bothered you (and for good reason). Yet a similar game such as Survival probably didn't bother you in the slightest, despite having very similar concepts, right? The key seems to be whether there was any substantial creative processing and whether that work was used without permission. | |
No, I'm not making a DBZ game with a catchy title and a Final Fantasy like Battle System. Thank god. :P For me a rip is simply copying someones code and editing it slightly. I see no reason to over-analyse! | |
Jmurph wrote:
To apply it to your example IainPeregrine, I doubt you would oppose anyone who wanted to make a game that was in a similar vein as yours, it's the copying of unique elements into a flat imitation that I think probably bothered you (and for good reason). Yet a similar game such as Survival probably didn't bother you in the slightest, despite having very similar concepts, right? Correct. Archipelago (Or "Thrive in Isolation," as the game calls itself in DS) has a great many of the same ideas, in many ways is better executed, and I've spent a good deal of time in there. I even offered to do some icons for it. Good game [the combat system is in dire need of work, but good game]. The key seems to be whether there was any substantial creative processing and whether that work was used without permission. The hard part is that we don't see the person's actions, only the outcome, that's why our definition of a rip is nebulous. Two people can independantly come up with an idea at two separate times, make two similar products, and both be legit. Or, one person can learn from an idea to create a similar product, and still be legit. The key, to me, is wether or not the creator has developed a core aspect of their product, to which everything else is a secondary feature, or wether they are just trying to ride the success of another product. In the later case, the creator most often blindly copies the various features of the successful product, understanding neither the core element of that product, or why it has become successful. This is why I used the phrase 'rip-off' in my post, because it's the act, and not the product, that we are trying to classify. In this light, 'rip' might be a misnomer when applied the current problems with source stealing on BYOND. Consider the realworld example of Pokemon and Digimon. Digimon contains none of the original artwork of Pokemon, but many people consider it a rip-off. Call BYOND users with someone else's code what they are, thieves; they steal other people's work, they distribute this work, they accept this work from illegitimate sources. This term can be applied without any confusion. A ripper, rip-off artist, or someone who rips-off another person's product, is one step above these petty criminals. | |
Call BYOND users with someone else's code what they are, thieves; they steal other people's work, they distribute this work, they accept this work from illegitimate sources. I agree wholeheartedly! | |