I wouldn't necessarily consider it a waste if you were only making 1 vs 100 projects. Either way, you should probably just invest a small portion of your own time to build your own "library", for pixel movement or any other functionality.

However, when random noob #3746 comes asking for help, and you only know how to do something by use of some library, it won't be much help, especially if you don't understand the internal workings of the library. You can't always rely on that library to be there to handle everything for you. Its kind of like how I mastered DM, but that knowledge isn't worth much in other arenas.

Forum_account wrote:

Sure its a help, you just give the person a link to the library and say "here, this'll do that for you."

With some libraries, that may work, but not with something like pixel movement, as you yourself seem to preach.

I'm not sure why so many BYOND users have the opinion that using a library is a sign of weakness.

Because it is.

You don't have to understand how it works, but people think they have to.

Plug and playing a bunch of libraries is barely a step above making a Zeta rip, which is barely above using BYOND to make a game in the first place.

Vast majority of the libraries I've seen on BYOND just flat out suck. They aren't efficient, they aren't bug free, they aren't kept up to date, most of them provide such simple functionality that you could literally write a better version of the library yourself in less time than it would take to get their library working for you - if you truly did understand the concepts.

Comparing Dwarf Fortress to Minecraft is like comparing Adventure to Ocarina of Time.

If using a library is somehow more complex than using DM to begin with, then that library is fail. The entire point of a library is to simplify the use of additional/complex features so that lazy/stupid people don't have to do it themselves.

EDIT: Bravo1 wrote:

no one is going to take pixel_movement and release a game called "Blue block adventure (now with ladders and ramps!)"

Hiro posted links to several projects made with FA's library, that's exactly what they were...

Forum_account wrote:

...not using it will always be easier) and there will always be some people who can't handle that. No matter what we do these people will be left behind.

Only because BYOND libraries suck, written by noobs for noobs. Libraries should contain very few new user-end content to learn (which is a downside IMO), and most of that content should be blatantly straightforward.
My own "personal libraries" (or whatever you want to consider the few systems that I transfer between projects) are all rather complex internally, but equate to just one or two simple procs on the user-end, it certainly wouldn't be easier not to use their "library" forms.

You guys are like Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore with reversed attitudes. Falacy (Moore with Limbaugh's personality) is this guy who thinks the system just sucks and everything in the world needs to be done to fix it. Forum_account (Limbaugh with Moore's personality) thinks that the system is fine the way it is, maybe needs to trim back a bit, and we can handle it on our own. And you both have good points, you're just both annoying asses about it.

Falacy wrote:

Comparing Dwarf Fortress to Minecraft is like comparing Adventure to Ocarina of Time.

Exactly. Adventure was one of the starters of the "Adventure" game genre. Just like Dwarf fortress started the "Mining/building" game genre. You seemed to ave missed the point.

Falacy wrote:

Hiro posted links to several projects made with FA's library, that's exactly what they were...

Yes, Doomed Dreams is basically just the library with a new title. However...

Portal DM: Uses the library but has a completely different setting than a blue block jumping around. The tiles look similar but I was trying to match them to the enrichment center. Also, Portals, speed gel, bounce gel, gravity fields. None of those are in FA's library.

Darkness: Have you even played the game? there are no blue blocks, no white walls, nothing is similar to the original library except the movement. (which as why the library was made.)

Springs N Things: This isn't a game, it's a set of additional snippets than can be used with Pixel_Movement to provide extra features and functionality.

RPG Demo: This was just TsFreaks musing on how easily Pixel_Movement can be used in other games, and isn't a game in itself.


Except for Doomed Dreams I don't see how any of those other links are just Pixel_Movement with a new title.


Falacy wrote:

Only because BYOND libraries suck, written by noobs for noobs.

Pixel_Movement, DMI Fonts Plus, Swapmaps, Pixel Projectiles, HDKMouseKeys... I can go on with a list of fantastic libraries, and their creators, that you've just offended by saying that. (especially Lummoxjr)

Falacy wrote:

The entirety of that is flawed. Pixel movement doesn't need to be implemented with DM, it needs to be implemented into DM. People won't be left behind, unless you mean how the entirety of BYOND has already been left behind, because nobody around here is advancing into pixel movement, except maybe you, and that doesn't seem to have given your game any advantage. And there's plenty that could be done about all of that.

Wow, wait, hang on, just. WOW.

Take a moment to look at some of the stuff that's been coming out recently. New works, not just updates. There are a good few which use this library and most people are finding excuses not to use it because they think it'll break their game (which it won't) or because Pixel_Movement just doesn't apply to that game.

FA's Pixel_Movement has opened up an entirely new level of capability to byond. Byond started as basically: Gameboy/NES style gameplay with Multiplayer functionality. If Pixel_Movement becomes integrated then we move into SNES and GBA style games. There is no reason NOT to implement pixel based movement into BYOND.

I'm currently working on Lands of Darkness, and another yet to be named project, both using pixel movement. Darkness uses pixel movement. Shootah uses pixel movement. I even have a Sonic the Hedgehog capability demo for pixel_movement and you're trying to say it's not worth it?

There are over 600 "original" games on BYOND, 6 of them are using pixel movement? Yea, those numbers are a lot better. It should be 100% not 1%.

Bravo1 wrote:

Exactly. Adventure was one of the starters of the "Adventure" game genre. Just like Dwarf fortress started the "Mining/building" game genre. You seemed to ave missed the point.

Which wasn't your point. You said that Terraria wasn't a clone of Minecraft - which it is, an inferior 2D clone. Those other examples took some decade old concept, and updated it into a masterpiece. Terraria doesn't even come close to that comparison.

* Those pixel movement games are original! *

I'll give you darkness, but the other ones are exactly what you originally said: the pixel movement library "now with ladders and ramps". They only add minor new features to what was already there.

Pixel_Movement, DMI Fonts Plus, Swapmaps, Pixel Projectiles, HDKMouseKeys... I can go on with a list of fantastic libraries, and their creators, that you've just offended by saying that. (especially Lummoxjr)

This falls into the same category as those 6 of 600 games using pixel movement, and all games on BYOND in general for that matter. The fact that 1% of the trash on BYOND comes close to reaching an acceptable level of quality, that isn't exactly a good thing.

and you're trying to say it's not worth it?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Building DM based pixel movement yourself is pointless. Not only is BYOND a complete and utter failure in its entirety, guaranteeing you lower player counts than the worst FPS game ever, but your lone pixel-movement adventure provides nothing for the overall community. Not only that, but its a giant step backwards in the development of your game. If you want to use pixel movement, then just move to a competent game engine to begin with, instead of trying to turn BYOND into one.

Falacy wrote:

Which wasn't your point all. You said that Terraria wasn't a clone of Minecraft - which it is, an inferior 2D clone. Those other examples took some decade old concept, and updated it into a masterpiece. Terraria doesn't even come close to that comparison.

That was entirely my point if you look at what I said.
Bravo1 wrote:

If any of you have every played Dwarf Fortress you'd know that Minecraft was not the first Mining/Crafting game, however it did make the genre boom...

Adventure started the Adventure game Genre. Zelda games made the adventure genre famous. Dwarf fortress started the mining/crafting/building genre, minecraft made it famous. Just because Terraria drops a dimension doesn't make it instantly terrible mining/building game.

Compare Ocarina of Time to another big 2d adventure/puzzle game and then tell me that the other game is "just a 2d ripoff"

There's a difference between ripping off of a game and creating a game within a genre.

Here's a better example, you're trying to say that Terraria is terrible in comparison to Minecraft, by that logic then Metroid games are terrible in comparison to DOOM because it drops a dimension. You won't actually play Terraria to give it the chance to wow you like it did me. Terraria has a ton more content, gameplay features, and purpose than Minecraft does. Minecraft is still an amazing game, but don't kill any other game just because it shares the same genre. Shit you sound like a CoD fanboy.

Falacy wrote:

This falls into the same category as those 6 of 600 games using pixel movement, and all games on BYOND in general for that matter. The fact that 1% of the trash on BYOND comes close to reaching the acceptable quality levels isn't exactly a good thing.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a library and a game. You also fail to realize that a good 30% of those 600 games are all rips, let's chop those off. 400 original games now, okay, good. 6 out of 400. Oh wait, it's actually 11 out of 400 as listed by Forum_Account. 2.5% Still seems low, but wait, how many games have come out since the library was actually debuted? You can't work with something that doesn't exist right? 47 games. How many of those are text based/chat systems/reboots of old games?? 16. That leaves 31 (original) games that have come out since pixel_movement was first introduced.

Look at that, one of every three new games uses pixel_movement, and you say no one uses it? You need to learn yourself some math.

Falacy wrote:

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Building DM based pixel movement is worthless. Not only is BYOND a complete and utter failure in its entirety - guaranteeing you lower player counts than the worst quality FPS game ever, but your single-project pixel-movement adventures provide nothing for the overall community.

If you hate it so much then get the fuck out of here. Your opinion doesn't even matter if you feel that way about Byond.

Bravo1 wrote:

That was entirely my point if you look at what I said.

I don't think you even know what point you're trying to make...

Adventure started the Adventure game Genre. Zelda games made the adventure genre famous. Dwarf fortress started the mining/crafting/building genre, minecraft made it famous.

That's more or less the point I'm trying to make. Those games may have started the genre, but they were decades old and terrible. Terraria is just trying to jump onto the Minecraft bandwagon. Its not trying to take the Minecraft concept, and bring it to an amazing new never before seen level of awesomeness.

Just because Terraria drops a dimension doesn't make it instantly terrible mining/building game.

The transition from 3D to 2D is far from the only thing that makes Terraria inferior.

Compare Ocarina of Time to another big 2d adventure/puzzle game and then tell me that the other game is "just a 2d ripoff"

Like what? There is actually a 2D (side-scroller) version of Zelda, I wouldn't compare it to OOT, like I would Terraria to Minecraft.

There's a difference between ripping off of a game and creating a game within a genre.

When your game has nearly identical, but vastly inferior features, guess which category it falls into

Here's a better example, you're trying to say that Terraria is terrible in comparison to Minecraft, by that logic then Metroid games are terrible in comparison to DOOM because it drops a dimension.

Those games aren't even comparable, but if anything, I would say Metroid was superior. However, if you want to compare 2D Metroid to 3D Metroid, then yes, the 3D ones are better, and 2D/3D clones of each other.

You won't actually play Terraria to give it the chance to wow you like it did me.

I've played Terraria for over 13 hours. I'm not just guessing at all the reasons why it sucks, I've played it long enough to have experienced all of them.

Shit you sound like a CoD fanboy.

OH SH*T SON!? I sound like a CoD fanboy because I haven't mentioned anything about CoD?

You don't seem to understand the difference between a library and a game.

How has this even come up?

You also fail to realize that a good 30% of those 600 games are all rips, let's chop those off.

That figure of 600 games was already based off of the "original" games count, not only that, but it was an underestimation.

400 original games now, okay, good. 6 out of 400. Oh wait, it's actually 10 out of 400 as listed by Forum_Account. 2.5% Still seems low, but wait, how many games have come out since the library was actually debuted? You can't work with something that doesn't exist right? 47 games. How many of those are text based/chat systems/reboots of old games?? 16. That leaves 31 (original) games that have come out since pixel_movement was first introduced.
Look at that Damn near one of every three new game uses pixel_movement, and you say no one uses it? You need to learn yourself some math.

I'm sure every single one of those numbers is wrong, but I don't care nearly enough to look into it

If you hate it so much then get the fuck out of here. Your opinion doesn't even matter if you feel that way about Byond.

I've already moved onto developing with Unity. BYOND has proven itself less than worthless and ungrateful, and the community around here just makes things even worse.

Feel free to continue arguing amongst yourselves about why such a standard feature, that would improve almost every BYOND game in existence, and would give BYOND at least a vague chance at not being such a failure shouldn't be implemented.