I post this since today there seems to have been a misunderstanding between us and a potential PA.
This really should be said though.
If you come offering your services, don't expect the game's First Chapter to be done before the year is up, and without a 2nd/3rd PA (the first who gets accepted would be our 2nd), we don't even know if the whole thing will be done before 2012's December.
There seems to be a few misunderstandings that:
-Project TH's staff, the ones who are all on now, plans to do anything short of literally push BYOND, and BYOND gaming, to it's limits. Yes. We know we're aiming for something unreasonable. 4 Battle Systems (why this shocked the guy who quit before he joined us, when I've posted this in almost every announcement for the game), Isometric, full storylines, all of this is stuff we plan to push to BYOND's limits.
We are especially looking at that battle systems.
Seemingly, 8 directional Isometric scares people.
If you're scared of base work, then work on the turfs. We got mountains, Canyons, Caves, Forests, Deadlands, Deserts, Grasslands, and more in just the first chapter alone.
If you people are coming to help us, expect to be put to work, and not given some simple glide. Expect to have to improve in the progress of the project.
This is not a project for the lazy, this is for those who seriously want to put their all into a game aiming to be BYOND's top game. This is for those who seriously want to give their all. And most of all, Project TH is a place to put your own heart into every piece of your work, to truly make this game as much yours as mine (Katoma).
This is a Team Effort, but if you insist on being selfish, egotistical, or even lazy, we have no need for any of you. We'll postpone expected release dates as long as we need, even if it's just 1 PA, and Fug and I (who are neither amazing PAs) have to join in ourselves if the need arise.
Zane, Axe, Fug, myself, we all want this project to succeed with all our hearts.
If you come to us, have your heart in it to take it in stride, and help us with all your being, and as an equal!
If you don't, seriously just piss off. We've had 2 people come to Fug, one disappeared, and one quit before he started. I am not in a good mood today thanks to this. We don't need anyone half hearted on our team. And we don't want anyone half hearted either. Whoever drops out will not be permitted back on once they find out the project will work. Yes, you heard me #2, you won't be allowed back on.
I'm sorry of course if this comes out rude to anyone, but it has to be made clear this is not a casual little project. I already passed that phase of my life of the TH Omniverse being a pet project, and now it's ready to come out as a game (maybe even series).
Either put up with the rest of the team's expectations, which is 110%, or don't come to us. You sure as hell won't get paid for the money we'd get from subscriptions if you quit at any point or didn't give 110%.
That is all.
ID:110559
 Mar 8 2011, 5:43 pm
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Mar 8 2011, 6:59 pm
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Zxcvdnm
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i'm going to put it to you like this, you better start forking out some cash. you're going to be hard-pressed to find anyone to share your net dream, i can assure you.
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They want their cash, they earn it, literally.
I am not going to pay anyone in advance (couldn't if I wanted to). Their payment comes from the players. If the game isn't successful, then it reflects on all of us. Their pay is equivalent to the players that come through and buy subscriptions. In short, the better they do, the more people, the more likely they get paid. Not a hard concept now is it? They don't like it, they can join the half hearted weenies in the back. I ain't getting paid either for this, neither is Axerob, Fugsnarf, or Zane. and they all know this. Oh sorry, you expect up front pay? Suck it up you damn wussies. God you people are spoiled. | |
TH-Productions wrote:
They want their cash, they earn it, literally. we're spoiled? hate to tell you this, but this is just capitalism for you. people will expect payment for their goods and services, and they'll want it now rather than later. unless you've got friends in the biz, you're going to have a hard time convincing people to join you. you can act pissy about it all you want, but its the name of the game and if you aren't willing to invest something other than your time into your "massive project" then good luck finding a competent artist willing to put up with your needs for only the POTENTIAL to make money. | |
If time isn't an issue, any game can be made with 1 pixel artist and 1 programmer.
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Have any of you made a game before?
If not, you're going to fail. Especially with your goals set so high. | |
http://byond.com/members/Fugsnarf
http://byond.com/members/Zane444 http://byond.com/members/Axerob And I got Megaman Navi Wars on my belt http://byond.com/members/DungeonDan Made that one chatters thing. So yes, we've all made or been directly involved in at least an alpha release game. @Sandlight: We know, and we're that damn crazy enough to do it. @Zxcvdnm: We're working as any fledgling business full of friends (and that's basically what Axe Fug Zane and I are). We're working for free, and can only offer the same as we're getting for our first business (which thankfully due to BYOND, requires no capital to start): part of the subscriptions. You still get paid, just at a different time. If people don't like your work, obviously nobody might get paid. I'm of the opinion "You get paid what you earn", not "You get paid for what you make, then fail in actual marketing". We've seen this in Big name star actors wanting millions of dollars for movies that failed altogether. Nuh uh. Quite frankly, I'm a tight-wad. I like to see order in things I do, and "perfection" in what I create. It's usually a personality flaw, but now it's my chance to get a game designed. If you don't like how I run things, take your butt out of my blog and don't read or post it again. One person who just wishes to criticize how the team is ran, just because nobody on the team has ANY free cash to use to recruit team members, has no rights to post here. This is a team where everyone acknowledges they're equals. That includes acknowledging you'll get paid at the same time. If nobody likes being treated entirely equal, they can fuck off, as stated in the blog post. If you wish to continue arguing this, I can just deny you posting rights. Nothing will change, even if we got access to a freaking fortune. | |
What's stopping you from firing the pixel artist before the game is released but after they've already done their work? You get their artwork but they're not around when the game is finished to get a share of the subscription money. And because they haven't been paid for it, the artist could easily claim that their icons are not yours to use and walk away with all of the graphics shortly before release. By paying people for their work as they do it you can avoid a lot of problems.
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You wont get anywhere in life if you aren't prepared to take risks and put it all on the table.
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Zane444 wrote:
You wont get anywhere in life if you aren't prepared to take risks and put it all on the table. Paying people for their work before the game has generated income is a risk. You guys talk about having your heart in the project, but you're not willing to be actually invested in the project in any measurable way. What's the harm? It might make you feel obligated to complete the project and earn your money back. Without anything at stake, you don't have anything to lose if the project fails. There is a difference between a risk and a bad idea, and you're not taking risks. | |
Forum_account wrote:
What's stopping you from firing the pixel artist before the game is released but after they've already done their work? You get their artwork but they're not around when the game is finished to get a share of the subscription money. And because they haven't been paid for it, the artist could easily claim that their icons are not yours to use and walk away with all of the graphics shortly before release. By paying people for their work as they do it you can avoid a lot of problems. If we did that, our image would be horrible. We fired Waltz before he did a damn thing, and if we fired him once he did, we would have taken everything out and started from scratch music wise. We got =3= people here willing to do music, amateurish or not. To insinuate this team has no sense of honor/pride and would do something so sneaky is a flat out insult. Professionalism? Who's to say your view of Professionalism isn't biased by standards? There's more than 1 way to be professional. We're going the long way around. If nobody wants to work with us, fine. We don't care. We have all we NEED to finish the project. We simply desire more to finish the game quicker. We have NO MONEY to pay with, we couldn't "Take a Risk" on hiring people to begin with if we wanted. If people want their money, they need to take their risks with an underdog team. | |
Point is, with such a massive project that is requested isometric detail, you're not gonna find many people skilled in that field and even fewer competent artists to do so without upfront payment.
You don't have the money, which has been spewed about this, but the way you go about presenting yourself (from the comments below and the post) you're not gonna draw much help. Keeping your cool would be my advice, people come and go. | |
Katoma is being a little harsh in his post there. It is a little frustrating though because we've had a decent few pixel artists interested that we haven't been able to count on in the least bit.
Personally, this game is more a hobby to me than something I'm pouring my life and soul into. I gave an extra 18 bucks I had to buy this blog a membership, but aside from that I don't intend to give any more funds. The fact of the matter is, if you want to hire a pixel artist they are going to want more than a measly 18 bucks. They'll want hundreds. If I had hundreds to spare right now, I'd keep it for a 3DS, not a pixel artist. | |
Quite frankly Doobly. I am only like this because of one frustration after another.
No person on BYOND is even worth $50 to begin with. $300? I knew a flat out professional Isometric Artist, complete with an official website and everything *including being hired by official MMOs*, who offered their services for that much. BYOND members? Not worth that much. No. Just no. They're not worth 100, they're not worth $50. They want pay, they get an even share with the rest of the team. It's that simple. Nobody's worth more to this team, nobody's going to get more. As for "Skilled" and "Competent" artists: We'll gladly take "Decent" and "good" artists. Why? Cause we acknowledge our team will improve over time until it's finished, and hell, odds are that any PA worth their salt will continually submit improved icons for the game even after the release of the completed game, and we'll just keep adding. And odds are, eventually we'll break down payments more and more so those who produce less after release get paid less, until only those who continually add content get paid altogether. We don't care about getting the best, we care about getting devoted people willing to constantly put in 110%, that 10% be their improvement over time, and willingness to improve the game. And yes, I'm harsh, but I'm blunt as hell too. I ain't saying this out of anger, but logic as well. Ask Fug or Axe, they'll tell you I don't talk on Emotion, but logic to back up that anger. | |
I am definitely with you on being a bit spiteful towards those who come and go, it's very frustrating. But it'd be much better for you to be more welcoming than spiteful, if you're gonna persist writing the blog posts, then I'm just giving a friendly suggestion that you should be more welcoming than spiteful towards a crowd you're trying to draw in.
As for money, I understand. That's no longer a topic. | |