Well, due to recent events, I have been reminded of the many post where the original poster gets offended and feels insulted due to what others would call a critique.
I personally feel anything negative that isn't sugar-coated can easily be mistaken, generally by someone whom may not be able to emotionally detach themselves from something of theirs, as a insult.
I would give examples, but I fear that would be a little much, not to mention the moderators would likely feel the same.
So, I've made this topic to gain public input from the BYOND community on what the line between insult and critique is, how each should be handled, and at what point do you present yourself, your work, or your ideas to be judged in a public forum?
On an side discussion, brought about by the same recent events, when is it that comparison crosses the line of insult?
Please refrain from posting examples or bleeding from other topics to which anything relevant may cause in derailing and/or arguments on the topic. I would like to avoid moderation on this topic as much as possible.
ID:1105584
 Dec 30 2012, 6:03 pm
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Please refrain from posting examples or bleeding from other topics to which anything relevant may cause in derailing and/or arguments on the topic. I would like to avoid moderation on this topic as much as possible. I will have to ask you to edit your post and remove what may result in the continuation of another topic here. | |
I will have to respectfully decline, because there's a key point in the post. If you're gonna critique someone, stay on topic, rather than ranting off about the color of their car.
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Criticism is something that's supposed to help the artist/author. If you just say, "You suck at _____ and you should give up.", that's not critique. "You suck at _____, I mean, seriously, look at that crap! What you need to do is _______, or some thing will ________." That's constructive. You also need to point out what you find good about the work, that way the author can re use this knowledge.
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And where would you say the line is? What is the thing that is the least constructive, but still not considered to be a insult?
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There's no such thing as critique that can't be taken as an insult in one way or another. All critique can be insultified. You need to pick your words wisely if you're going to critique.
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It can only be perceived as one or the other, it is up to whomever is subject to the critiquing to take it however they so choose. This is why the post was made, to get a general idea of what most of the BYOND community considers to be the line. It isn't good to ask for a critique if you cannot handle it, either, because odds are, no matter if it's all critique or all insulting, you're going to get offended by something. And half the time, you wont even be offended about what you should be offended by. None of the above statements are meant as a reflection of you, only a reply to what you have stated.
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As far as the BYOND community goes, I find that "rip" tends to be the tick-off point. Don't mention rips because either A. It is a rip and the person is gonna get mad at you for calling them out on it (thus, why I am banned from several fangames) or B. It's not a rip, and you're insulting the creativity of the author by calling it one.
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Alas, someone finally points to a line. Being a rip is frowned upon for clear reasons, but near every programmer I have spoken with on BYOND has tinkered with a rip at one point or another. As have I and as am I. Though the title 'rip' is rather easily thrown around, and sometimes this is not the case. What do you do when you get the rare 'rip' that has permissions for the content provided? It is still deemed a rip. So what is the breaking point to where something is either considered a rip or a non-rip? Is it when the non-rip uses original content? If that's the case, why are libraries allowed and why are there games considered 'original' using the already over-used and copyrighted RPGMaker graphics? At this point, most games I stumble upon or am asked to play by someone I know on a more personal level than 'hey, from that game!' look the same. DBZ rips, some Naruto games, a Pokemon game, a FF game, and two original games were hard to tell apart just based on the amount of RPGMaker graphics added into them.
Before I type a essay about what should be considered a rip, I'll stop myself and leave this open for feedback. | |
I think the key in critiquing is to do it in a respectful and constructive manner. People generally do not respond well to harsh critiquing such as: "You're doing it wrong. You're using pillow shading and it looks butt ugly. Read this link and learn how to do it properly!"
A more suitable reply would be: "If you don't mind me adding my two cents, pillow shading is often a form of art that is avoided. I have provided you with a link which explains why and another which displays a form which I believe would work well for you. I hope it helps!" Constructively or not, you'll get those who just cannot accept criticism. Which makes you wonder why they post on a public forum in the first place. | |
I generally take it as Calus does, respect is paramount and a constructive approach is also essential. You tend to require a few standing position assumptions about the thing you're going to critique:
1. The person offering up work to critique spent some time on the work, unless otherwise stated. 2. The person also put effort into making it to the better of their ability in all areas, unless otherwise stated. 3. The person is to some degree, invested or proud of their offering. These three points form what I probably would feel, making an offering for critique myself. There is an inherent understanding that the work is not "amazing" by the person offering it. If it were, you'd probably not be looking for critique as you'd be content in it. They know it is not God's gift to programming/art/music, and they don't particularly gain a lot from being told as such. Negative openers like "It's bad" for example offer nothing, particularly. Given the three assumptions, no-one really wants to be told their work is terrible, as they spent a reasonable amount of time on it and exerted reasonable effort. It also tends to ruin your critique. Once you've opened like that, the remainder of your points stand a good chance of being ignored, mostly out of human nature. The most perplexing bit of such openers, is you don't even need to write it as such. "It could use a lot of work" for example covers the same sentiment, but in a way the person offering can take constructively, as a call to try again. Critique on BYOND tends to be quite canned. It's natural in a way, as you deal predominantly with beginners, and so it's tempting to offer up an outside resource that explains the issue well instead of offer applicable explanation yourself. Typically this is lazy critique though, and in my opinion not entirely helpful. Better to offer some explanation relevant to the offering (using it as an example, focusing on parts of it) and then offer the outside resource as the full explanation. Some critique on BYOND mind you, kinda sucks, lets be honest. We're not so hot on good critique here really, compared to other places. We tend to do it sloppily and with attitude. Which makes it demeaning to the person offering. As for where the line is, my feeling is if you're having to ask where the line is between critique and insult (for most people) then your critique needs some improvement, as it shouldn't be a question that comes up. | |
I agree with a majority of your posting, but I feel that if you feel alright about doing a bad job because you can just try again, you're not going to have the drive as you would if you wanted to prove the people, you feel are insulting you, wrong. You have to want to do better before you can do your best. I'm not advocating the insults to one's works, but I am saying that the robotic reply isn't always the best. If it is someone that's spent a few months in whatever field it may be, they're not going to sob and cry over being told their work is bad, they might be upset because they thought their work is good. If you cannot detach yourself from the work you post for the reasoning of critique, then you'll never be able to see the points that are being made against your work. I have seen people they think they know better than 'veterans' of the field they're in and that the veterans are the ones doing it wrong when they're told something.
Should it be the poster's obligation to be able to take what is said and use it to inspire them to do better? Or is it the critic's obligation to ensure the poster's feelings are not disturbed? People who overcome insults, critiques, bashing, and bullying tend to be one of the most talented in that field. People whom give into the above often go no where, which some would say is proof they weren't cut for that field of work. | |
Neither poster nor critic have any obligations. However useless criticism does nothing for the poster, should they choose to take it seriously.
Just make sure that when you're critiquing something, you actually critique something and you should be good. If you critique and it's bad critique, no one is going to take it. If you critique and it's good critique and the poster chooses not to take it, that's their prerogative. There's an unwritten/unspoken contract here. 1. The poster will hear your concerns about their work. They have no obligation to act on these concerns 2. The critic is taking their valuable time to give the poster tips on improvement. The critic has no obligation to voice any concerns in the slightest. There need not be a critic. Any critic is a voluntary participant. | |
Harsh critique tends to be taken badly or ignored in most circumstances. A lot of the reason for that is it's quite natural to get defensive in such scenarios, as opposed to reading the feedback. One of the big questions people raise defensively is "Who are you to say that?".
On BYOND, that's pretty much a guaranteed mental win of a question, because the person doing the critique is (almost without fail) of no position of authority in that field to make a harsh critique that carries enough social and intellectual weight to make a person go "oh". As a for instance, I don't think there's a person on BYOND who could give a harsh critique to me, that I'd actually be taken aback by and evaluate seriously. Similarly, despite my degree and 7 years industrial experience in programming and design, there's very few if any people here I think I could give a harsh critique to that would make them stand up and re-evaluate their position. BYOND doesn't have "veterans" in the fields people practice here, not even close. You do not see harsh critiques from good teachers often, and the circumstances they apply it are quite specific. They must hold the student's respect (through intellectual authority on the matter, social bond, and teaching charisma) which takes time to develop. The student must turn in a quality of work that is significantly below what the teacher thinks is their capability. That usually requires the student to have submitted better before, or demonstrated acumen verbally. At that point the harshness of the critique doesn't focus on "It's bad", but "You can do a lot better, I know. I am disappointed". Disappointment from someone you hold in high regard can be a good motivator, and invokes a need to prove oneself. Some random "jerk" nobody coming out of nowhere going "Yeah, this sucks bad" does pretty well nothing. As a critic, you almost always throw away the rest of your critique if you carry that line into things, particularly on BYOND. Better not to, period. | |
Ah, this discussion brings me back to my days of Doom mapping and reviewing.
I used to make and review custom levels for Doom quite a lot. The few maps that I did submit for review were not harshly criticized, although not revered as amazing either. However, I saw a lot of harsh criticism, a lot of negative reactions to harsh criticism, and so on. I actually have mixed feelings about this issue. On the one hand, I tend to try to be as respectful as I can when critiquing other work. If I find something wrong with a game or artwork, I want the author to take my opinion to heart rather than brush it off because it offends them. On the other hand, there's some merit to getting straight to the point without holding back. I think there is a big practical difference between saying "The gameplay might be better if..." and "The gameplay is awful because X Y and Z." In the first instance, you're taking a weak position and you are not really expressing how bored you were when you tried the game. You're almost saying that it was fun, but has room for a little improvement. In the second instance you are saying "Look, I don't like this and I wouldn't play it unless you make big changes." So, while I don't think saying "this sucks" without explanation is a great idea (especially to a beginner), I do think people should be prepared to read any comment with a clear head, without taking things personally. The person receiving the criticism has a lot of control over where the line between insult/critique actually stands. Thinking about this reminds me of a time when I wanted to join a community Doom project. Anyone was allowed to sign up and they would contribute a map or two, resulting in a huge level set for the game Heretic. I hadn't done any work alongside other members of the community, but felt I was a decent enough mapper so I signed up. I opened up my map editor and drew out my Heretic level. I spent time on it, I thought it was good, and so I submitted it. All they said was "this is absolutely terrible, try again." Explanation came in the form of "it looks like shit and it isn't fun." Now, I could have thought "screw these guys" and quit right then and there. Instead, I decided to scrap the work I had done and start over. I paid a lot more attention to making my level look snazzy, and giving it fast, explosive gameplay. Needless to say, the quality-control team was impressed, and I went on to make another map which they also liked. I felt good because they praised and accepted my work, but there was another aspect to it. I felt good about it because I was impressed with myself. Those two maps were the best work I had done in doom modding up to that point. Looking back, I realized that my first submission really did suck and I didn't focus enough energy into making it ready for public consumption. I guess the moral of the story is, critics shouldn't be ridiculously harsh, but authors shouldn't be too sensitive either. Especially in a setting like this, where we offer free instruction to almost everyone. | |
BYOND doesn't have 'veterans', which is why I used the quote. I meant that statement only to avoid explaining that by veteran I mean someone that has a lot more experience than yourself. I could get into the discussion that there are no 'masters' in fields like programming, or in any field if you think about it, as no one man can know everything about any one thing.
I never said 'yeah, this sucks bad' was a motivator, I said insulting things could be. I would hardly call such a broad statement a insult. 'The shading sucks', however, could be used to motivate you to improve the shading. | |
NNAAAAHH wrote:
BYOND doesn't have 'veterans' What? Yes it does... I could get into the discussion that there are no 'masters' in fields like programming, or in any field if you think about it, as no one man can know everything about any one thing. True, no man can know everything. A woman can though :P Seriously though, any master will tell you they obviously don't know everything there is to know. That doesn't mean they aren't a master. For a programming example, I would use John Carmack. He continues to write 3D engines that strain the limits of graphics hardware. Does he know how to develop a fun game? Probably not, but he is a master programmer in the field of 3D engines. | |
Take for instance:
BYOND doesn't have 'veterans' What? Yes it does... What is wrong with instead saying: Not really.. / I disagree.. / I think that is not correct.. People who ask for critique would understand thick answers, but psychologically saying perhaps choosing the words matters to accepting the critique. Stephen: Disappointment from someone you hold in high regard can be a good motivator, and invokes a need to prove oneself. Some random "jerk" nobody coming out of nowhere going "Yeah, this sucks bad" does pretty well nothing. As a critic, you almost always throw away the rest of your critique if you carry that line into things, particularly on BYOND. Better not to, period. That. And why rudeness or self-centred replies? I personally dislike it when someone go "your post does not make least sense to us". This totally disrespects the writer's way of thinking, and attacks his or her pride. If you wish to answer or help, do it in a good way. Otherwise, criticising in a snobby manner will not help at all. This does not imply not to have a straight-forward criticise. | |
The difference is this. Critique gives you grounds for improvement. Anything else is meaningless when someone asks for critique.
If I draw a picture and ask for critique, I'm not looking for people to say "Nice work!" or "You drew this in paint? What are you doing? GIMP is where it's at!"
No, I'm looking for, "Well, eyes are generally in the center of the face, so when you start drawing, cut your face in half and draw the eyes on that line." "You drew the jawbone lower than physically possible, try to remember where the insides are when you're drawing structures."
Stay on topic, and give someone something to work on.