Peaceful protest

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Jul 9 2001, 5:06 am
In response to Botman

Aside from copyright issues, there's a very good reason not to allow the warranty after you've altered the machine in any way. A warranty from Sony is a guarantee that they put together the machine right, that everything's in good working order when you receive your machine. If this isn't true... i.e., the machine doesn't work, or breaks down in an unreasonable amount of time... because they guaranteed their work, they will replace or repair it.

Once you've opened up the PS's casing and fiddled around with the components, who's to say what condition you received it in? In order to protect themselves from false claims and the stupidity of others, most every company on the face of the earth refuses to warranty anything that's been messed with.

Telling you that you can copy your games isn't condoning modifications to the console. This is where we get into the area of kids playing lawyers again.

Though not a ROM, it is still copying a CD,

I'm not even going to go into the definition of what a ROM is (technically, those NES games you download aren't ROMs... they're writable copies of ROMs. A PS game, on the other hand, is unwritable, so is a ROM... a CD-ROM, in fact. Ha, I lied. I did go into it.)
Jul 9 2001, 5:18 am
In response to LexyBitch

Telling you that you can copy your games isn't condoning modifications to the console. This is where we get into the area of kids playing lawyers again.

No no, I was just kinda pointing out its funny cause they dissaprove of you messing around with the consols internal parts, yet they know that if you are going to make backup cds, and they say you can do this, then your going to have to. Though I relise just now that thats not entirely true, as I managed to play pirated, eer "backup" cds on my PS without chipping it, so really Ive just disproved my whole idea. Damn. =)
Jul 9 2001, 5:25 am
In response to Botman
On 7/9/01 8:18 am Botman wrote:
Telling you that you can copy your games isn't condoning modifications to the console. This is where we get into the area of kids playing lawyers again.

No no, I was just kinda pointing out its funny cause they dissaprove of you messing around with the consols internal parts, yet they know that if you are going to make backup cds, and they say you can do this, then your going to have to. Though I relise just now that thats not entirely true, as I managed to play pirated, eer "backup" cds on my PS without chipping it, so really Ive just disproved my whole idea. Damn. =)


Actully some games don't need the chip but most do and if you want to be able to play those umm "backups" and want to maintain your warentie you can't take it to your nearest sony store and have them put in what they call a "Backup Chip" But its the same thing as a mod chip
Jul 9 2001, 8:15 am
Funny, isn't it, how this discussion turned from a refusal of DBZ help to a discussion on the legality of backed-up ROMs. =)

Blessed internet, O how we love thee.
Jul 9 2001, 12:10 pm
In response to Botman
On 7/9/01 8:18 am Botman wrote:
Telling you that you can copy your games isn't condoning modifications to the console. This is where we get into the area of kids playing lawyers again.

No no, I was just kinda pointing out its funny cause they dissaprove of you messing around with the consols internal parts, yet they know that if you are going to make backup cds, and they say you can do this, then your going to have to. Though I relise just now that thats not entirely true, as I managed to play pirated, eer "backup" cds on my PS without chipping it, so really Ive just disproved my whole idea. Damn. =)

I don't believe it's Sony that allows you to make a back-up of your original. I believe it's US law.
Jul 9 2001, 1:03 pm
In response to Cinnom
I don't believe it's Sony that allows you to make a back-up of your original. I believe it's US law.

I'll quote from my Mario 64 instruction manual:


<h3>IMPORTANT</h3>
WARNING: Copying of any Nintendo game is illegal and is strictly prohibited by domestic and international copyright laws. "Back-up" or "archival" copies are not authorized and are not necessary to protect your software. Violators will be prosecuted.

This Nintendo game is not designed for use with any unauthorized copying device. Use of any such device will invalidate your Nintendo product warranty. Nintendo (and/or any Nintendo licensee or distributor) is not responsible for any damage or loss caused by the use of any such device. If use of such device causes your game to stop operating, disconnect the device carefully to avoid damage and resume normal game play. If your game ceases to operate and you have no device attached to it, please contact your local authorized Nintendo retailer.

The contents of this notice do not interfere with your statutory rights.

This manual and other printed matter accompanying this game are protected by domestic and international copyright laws.

The rental of this game without permission of Nintendo or its licensees is strictly prohibited.


While that applies only to the N64, I'm fairly sure that they had a similar version for both the NES and the SNES, and I know for a fact that Sony also has a similar disclaimer.

(Hmm, that printed matter is protected by copyright law. I wonder if I should have posted this. ;-)
Jul 9 2001, 1:31 pm
In response to Spuzzum
On 7/9/01 4:03 pm Spuzzum wrote:
"Back-up" or "archival" copies are not authorized and are not necessary to protect your software. Violators will be prosecuted.

Hmph. It sure would have been nice to have a backup copy to "protect" my Zelda cartridge when it crapped out oh so many years ago. But of course it was not necessary because I could have paid them more money for a second copy to protect my software. Hmmm, if I buy a second copy and consider it to be my "back-up," does that mean I'm violating their terms and I'll be prosecuted for giving them more money? ;-)

<disclaimer>I am not a lawyer, but the following is my understanding from reading some reputable seeming sources.</disclaimer>

Actually, according to this page that I linked to earlier, it is perfectly legal to make backup copies of CDs, software, etc. The trouble is that fair use is really only based on legal precedent set by judges. At least in the US, there is nothing really concrete in copyright law about fair use - it is left basically to the courts to decide what is and what is not fair use. Thus, according to precedent, I can legally copy my N64 cartridges for backup purposes without fear of prosecution by Nintendo. Unless, of course, I get stuck with a judge who wants to overturn the precedent. ;-)

Companies like Nintendo, Microsoft, whoever, who want to scare customers into not making backup copies (so they'll have to buy the product again if the media fails) are perfectly free to put disclaimers such as the above with their products because the law does not specifically grant fair use.

The RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) fought tooth and nail to prevent consumers from exercising their fair use rights by making exact, backup copies of their CDs. That's why the DAT format failed except in professional circles. Ultimately, the RIAA failed since CD burners are so common now, but they aren't giving up. There are a number of initiatives out there designed to limit consumers' ability to make digital copies of music they already paid for. SDMI is one that appears not to have taken off like they hoped. I'm sure there will be more. And of course, you do know that you pay an extra "tax" on every blank CD or cassette you purchase because you are assumed to be a filthy pirate with intentions of "stealing" money from the poor, little RIAA.

The MPAA (Motion Picture...) is another, just as bad. Look at the DVD format. It's encrypted and requires a hardware and software key licensed from the MPAA. Why should I need their permission to view content I've already purchased?? Plus, DVD players emit their video signal in such a way (Macrovision) that a TV will display it just fine, but a VCR gets a bunch of static (it has to do with high frequency fluctuations and TVs aren't sensitive to but VCRs are) so you can't even make an inexact analog copy of a DVD. They've effectively labeled us all as criminals (guilty before proven innocent) and restricted our rights to fair use. If they (and the RIAA I'm sure) ultimately have their way, we'll be paying for every single time we watch a movie or listen to a song. We'll all wear gps receivers and if it's determined that we walk within earshot of a song playing, money will be automatically deducted from our checking accounts. ;-)

But seriously, I had a point there. Somewhere. Oh well, at least this is Babble!
Jul 9 2001, 1:38 pm
In response to Air Mapster
The MPAA (Motion Picture...) is another, just as bad. Look at the DVD format. It's encrypted and requires a hardware and software key licensed from the MPAA. Why should I need their permission to view content I've already purchased?? Plus, DVD players emit their video signal in such a way (Macrovision) that a TV will display it just fine, but a VCR gets a bunch of static (it has to do with high frequency fluctuations and TVs aren't sensitive to but VCRs are) so you can't even make an inexact analog copy of a DVD. They've effectively labeled us all as criminals (guilty before proven innocent) and restricted our rights to fair use. If they (and the RIAA I'm sure) ultimately have their way, we'll be paying for every single time we watch a movie or listen to a song. We'll all wear gps receivers and if it's determined that we walk within earshot of a song playing, money will be automatically deducted from our checking accounts. ;-)

Not far from the truth... I seem to recall reading that they were coming out with miniature GPS transmitters that could be implanted beneath your skin...

However impractical that is remains to be seen.


I hate to support Microsoft, but I'm sure glad Microsoft is nothing like that. At least, not to such an extreme. ;-)
Jul 9 2001, 3:36 pm
In response to Air Mapster
Why should I need their permission to view content I've already purchased??

You haven't purchased the content. Read the licensing agreement for any of the things you've mentioned, it explains exactly what you've purchased. If you don't agree with that, don't purchase it. If you don't like the way other people manage their movies/games/music, make your own.

When you buy tickets to go to Disney World, do you claim that your purchase of a ticket entitles you to go through the Employee's Only doors? Or jump to the head of the line in a popular ride? (It does if you have one of those FastPass tickets, or whatever they call them. But if that's the case, you've bought more priveliges than the average person.) Of course not. Buying the tickets only entitles you to the rights enumerated in the fine print on the tickets.

Do all the assorted Associations you've mentioned need all this money? Of course not. No one needs money. We could all go and eat grubs in Jobe's commune, if we wanted to. But if we make something, we're entitled to decide for ourselves how much we want to ask in exchange for what portion of the thing we've made. All those greedy companies might as well ask, do you need 1 copy of a video game, let alone 2?

Even though I don't ever intend on kicking anyone out of LexyMUD (I'm not saying everyone will be welcome... but anyone who does leave will leave voluntarily. :) ), I certainly reserve the right to kick anyone out I want. I will set the terms for what is and isn't fair use of my product, and anyone who disagrees is welcome to make their own game. If Bill Gates came into my game, I'd expect him to abide by my rules... so if I use his software, I'll extend him the same courtesy.

For that matter, adding a surcharge to blank media to offset piracy is no more labeling everyone a crook than when a restaurant or store has to raise its prices in order to offset shoplifters and people who run out on bills.
Jul 9 2001, 4:45 pm
In response to Spuzzum
On 7/9/01 4:38 pm Spuzzum wrote:
The MPAA (Motion Picture...) is another, just as bad. Look at the DVD format. It's encrypted and requires a hardware and software key licensed from the MPAA. Why should I need their permission to view content I've already purchased?? Plus, DVD players emit their video signal in such a way (Macrovision) that a TV will display it just fine, but a VCR gets a bunch of static (it has to do with high frequency fluctuations and TVs aren't sensitive to but VCRs are) so you can't even make an inexact analog copy of a DVD. They've effectively labeled us all as criminals (guilty before proven innocent) and restricted our rights to fair use. If they (and the RIAA I'm sure) ultimately have their way, we'll be paying for every single time we watch a movie or listen to a song. We'll all wear gps receivers and if it's determined that we walk within earshot of a song playing, money will be automatically deducted from our checking accounts. ;-)

Not far from the truth... I seem to recall reading that they were coming out with miniature GPS transmitters that could be implanted beneath your skin...

However impractical that is remains to be seen.


I hate to support Microsoft, but I'm sure glad Microsoft is nothing like that. At least, not to such an extreme. ;-)

Only worst. Have you hear about the window XP?
They would charge if you use their software to print a picture (if you let their list of publishers print it for you). (From the Kodak lawsuit.)
And they plan to shift their platform to the internet. Imagine: Every time you type a document, you have to pay them to store it on your hard disk. And when you want to open it, you have to log onto the local microsoft isp and download the "permission"/"software".
At least thats my interpretation of the ".net" initiative.
Jul 9 2001, 4:59 pm
In response to Spuzzum
On 7/9/01 11:15 am Spuzzum wrote:
Funny, isn't it, how this discussion turned from a refusal of DBZ help to a discussion on the legality of backed-up ROMs. =)

Blessed internet, O how we love thee.

Speaking of the legality of backed-up ROMs, it's been my understanding based on a couple different sources that if you own the original cartridge of, say, Super Mario Bros., your actual rights extend as far as you personally making a back-up copy, although Nintendo will tell you not to, because such a copy is a lot more useful as a means of pirating their software than it is a safeguard against technical failure.
Jul 9 2001, 5:27 pm
In response to Air Mapster
How the heck do you make a back up of a N64 cartridge anyways?

I guess the moral of all this is that, if you want "back up" CD's, go to Cuba.

Viva la Prezidenté!
Jul 9 2001, 5:30 pm
In response to Botman
On 7/9/01 8:27 pm Botman wrote:
How the heck do you make a back up of a N64 cartridge anyways?

I guess the moral of all this is that, if you want "back up" CD's, go to Cuba.

Viva la Prezidenté!

I dunno, but I've seen sites advertising N64 ROMs, so presumably it's possible.
Jul 9 2001, 5:36 pm
In response to Leftley

I dunno, but I've seen sites advertising N64 ROMs, so presumably it's possible.

Those ROMs are for on your computer though arnt they? Cause you need a 3D card to run them with an emulator... not that I know.
Jul 9 2001, 5:44 pm
In response to Botman
On 7/9/01 8:27 pm Botman wrote:
How the heck do you make a back up of a N64 cartridge anyways?

I guess the moral of all this is that, if you want "back up" CD's, go to Cuba.

Viva la Prezidenté!

A ROM cartridge is basically memory that is burned permenantly into a particular configuration. With the proper equipment, you can read the memory (without excuting it like a game counsel does) and dump that to a file. "ROMs" are actually short for ROM images. As Lexy pointed out, it's not really ROM after you store it in a file. For some reason, pirates can't grasp big words like "ROM images" and have to reduce it to as few letters as possible, i.e. "c my l33+ ROMZ i r roxxor." It's funny, all the real hackers I've known were able to type.
Jul 9 2001, 5:48 pm
In response to Botman
On 7/9/01 8:36 pm Botman wrote:
I dunno, but I've seen sites advertising N64 ROMs, so presumably it's possible.

Those ROMs are for on your computer though arnt they? Cause you need a 3D card to run them with an emulator... not that I know.

No, the data is the same as they pulled off the ROM cartridge. It's the emulators job to take the machine code for the game cousel and turn it into machine code for your computer.

Why am I posting about emulation on the BYOND forum? Go read a ROMs site! :)

P.S. I still think the best emulator ever was the emu program that let me run CGA software on my Hercules monochrome monitor! That was some sharp coding ;)
Jul 9 2001, 5:51 pm
Games Live:

Evidence A: Dragon Ball GT: Genesis (Version 1.1 Beta)
Evidence B: Dragon Ball GT: Genesis (Version 1.2 Beta)
Evidence C: Dragon Ball GT: Genesis (Version 1.2)

In conclusion people taking part in Evidence A & B are stupid.
Jul 9 2001, 5:55 pm
In response to Botman
On 7/9/01 8:51 pm Botman wrote:
Games Live:

Evidence A: Dragon Ball GT: Genesis (Version 1.1 Beta)
Evidence B: Dragon Ball GT: Genesis (Version 1.2 Beta)
Evidence C: Dragon Ball GT: Genesis (Version 1.2)

In conclusion people taking part in Evidence A & B are stupid.

Upon further examination:

Evidence A: Dragon Ball GT: Genesis (Version 1.1 Beta)
Evidence B: Dragon Ball GT: Genesis (Version 1.2 Beta)
Evidence C: Dragon Ball GT: Genesis (Version 1.2)

On reexamination of the evidence, people taking part in Evidence A, B, & C are tasteless.
Jul 9 2001, 5:57 pm
In response to Botman
On 7/9/01 8:36 pm Botman wrote:
I dunno, but I've seen sites advertising N64 ROMs, so presumably it's possible.

Those ROMs are for on your computer though arnt they? Cause you need a 3D card to run them with an emulator... not that I know.

Ah, you mean how to make an actual physical backup cartridge? It's my understanding that you'd use pretty much the same equipment, although of course you need a blank cart too. I don't know much about ROM dumping and the like, but I do know that it's far from unheard of to manually write to a cartridge.
Jul 9 2001, 6:00 pm
In response to Shadowdarke
On 7/9/01 8:44 pm Shadowdarke wrote:
On 7/9/01 8:27 pm Botman wrote:
How the heck do you make a back up of a N64 cartridge anyways?

I guess the moral of all this is that, if you want "back up" CD's, go to Cuba.

Viva la Prezidenté!

A ROM cartridge is basically memory that is burned permenantly into a particular configuration. With the proper equipment, you can read the memory (without excuting it like a game counsel does) and dump that to a file. "ROMs" are actually short for ROM images. As Lexy pointed out, it's not really ROM after you store it in a file. For some reason, pirates can't grasp big words like "ROM images" and have to reduce it to as few letters as possible, i.e. "c my l33+ ROMZ i r roxxor." It's funny, all the real hackers I've known were able to type.

u shudn't make fun of ppl who now how 2 type c001 n0\/\/ 1 h4XX0r j00 f00!

P.S. "Game counsel"--is that what videogames hire to represent them in videogame court?
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