i have to say, i for one, do not like the change of verbs to commands. The panel now says commands instead of verbs. Can we get it to change back to Verbs for defualt please?
FIREking
p.s. Recent Beta shows this. If you did not change verbs to comamnds, then there is a bug when switching games.
ID:137280
 Jan 2 2002, 11:11 pm
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Tom wrote:
FIREking wrote: Yes, when I first started BYOND and I saw the "verbs" panel I had no idea what they were, commands best suites it because they are in fact commands, aren't they? | |
NO! Dood we need verbs. In fact, verbs is a shorter word than commands, and gives more panel tab space.
PLEASE KEEP VERBS! FIREking p.s. if you dont know what a verb is, go to 3rd grade! | |
Then make your own "verbs" panel, I'm pretty sure you know how, "Commands" is more logical than "verbs" verbs doesn't really tell you that you have to click them for an action, command makes you think that it has an action associated with it.
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i seriously dont want to have to go back to all of my old games, and put that for every verb.
If someone wants commands, good for them, go for it! Lets keep verbs as a defualt. I know how dan and tom want things to always be as backward compatible as possible. This way, all the old games that havent been touched for years will still say verbs. And if you want commands, you can with category setting in verbs. FIREking | |
Well, as far as I can see out of this thread, Tom seems neutral, and Dan and Nadrew seem to be in favour of "Commands".
I am also in favour of "Commands". | |
great, more confusion.
think of it this way. Someone comes to byond, and starts to learn how to program. He starts making some VERBS, then when he tests it, the VERBS are under the COMMANDS? WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? I want verbs, it complys to the language, and i think Tom agrees. FIREking | |
Think of a player's perspective.
"'Verbs'? WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?!" I have *never* seen any online game where they referred to commands as anything other than commands. It makes sense to refer to "commands" as "commands" -- it's the same word! As Deadron pointed out and I'm starting to realise, we design for the players; we don't design our games to play them completely by ourselves. Some satisfaction comes from creating, some comes from fixing things, some comes from fiddling around with your code-given powers, and most comes from seeing others' satisfaction with your concoction.* If you want players to play your game, you make your game more intuitive for them! * Ever notice how upset people get when code is stolen from them (avoiding the whole 'who-is-stealing-from-whom' debate)? They worked on it, and they only got a bit of satisfaction from it. The real satisfaction that they wanted is being given to other people, not them. Thus, anger and frustration. They worked, other people get profit. Not fun. | |
FIREking wrote:
I want verbs, it complys to the language, and i think Tom agrees. No, I don't, actually. As I said before, I think that "commands" is more intutive, because "verbs" doesn't imply a typical game-action. It makes sense to you, and other coders in DM, because that's what the language syntax is, but consider that most people playing your games won't be BYOND coders and therefore might get thrown off by the unfamiliar terminology. Really though, it's not that big of a deal. You can always configure the name of the verb category. Maybe we'll provide a language element (world.category) to override the default. | |
its not so much that im worried about this one small little word changing. Its the fact that this one simple thing is changing, something i dislike, and i fear that more and more things will keep changing, and no matter what i say, they change anyways. That fear of having things change in a way that i dont like, scares me.
You are all looking in the aspect of the player. But you must also look in the perspective of the designer. When he is programming in byond, he will expect the VERBS to be in the VERBS panel. Wait until you explain everything to him, and it sounds all orderly. Finally you get to verbs and you say, oh and did i tell you? The verbs, by defualt, appear in the Commands panel. Oh well though, i figured ive lost the war/debate. Whoopie, verbs becomes commands. FIREking =( | |
Tom wrote:
FIREking wrote: what i meant by you agreeing, was that you agree that verbs complys to the language. I think it would make more sense to have it that way. Its fairly simple when a new player comes along, and you say, See that verbs panel? Thats where the basic actions take place. Of course, your argument then becomes, with the new addition of Commands, we wont have to explain that to new users at all! And i see your point. After all though, its not a big deal. Its just that all these changes are scaring me! FIREking | |
FIREking wrote:
great, more confusion. One more vote for "commands" here. | |
its not so much that im worried about this one small little word changing. Its the fact that this one simple thing is changing, something i dislike, and i fear that more and more things will keep changing, and no matter what i say, they change anyways. That fear of having things change in a way that i dont like, scares me. Though I like the idea of using the word "commands" as the default, you do make a good point here. However, I don't think there will be many more changes like this. | |
I have to say I vote for "Commands", and I figure its no more confusing for the designer than it is for players, who see commands popping up in a verbs panel! I do, however like Tom's suggestion for a world.category variable, since this prevents repeatedly setting the category for all verbs incase "Commands" doesnt fit for your specific game.
The thing about being part of a large community, is that as more people come in you become less "important" overall. Some people's opinion might still carry a lot more weight than others(In the case of people with overall successful games, Dan and Tom, etc.) but you have to think of it this way. If you have 2000 designers, which all have an opinion on a certain subject, the fact that 1 designer disagrees will be a minute difference and it is generally better to listen to what the designers want overall, and not the specific individual. This is the way I feel about it, anyways. Alathon | |
FIREking wrote:
think of it this way. Someone comes to byond, and starts to learn how to program. He starts making some VERBS, then when he tests it, the VERBS are under the COMMANDS? In terms of language compliance, "Procs" could just as easily appear in the interface. You seem to be approaching the argument from the designer's perspective. Most people agree that players will find "Commands" more intuitive (except in cases where they're reading instructions that point to a "Verbs" panel, though I'm sure they could figure that out), and you say designers will find "Verbs" more intuitive. I think there are a couple of problems with that perspective, though. For one thing, when it comes to making things intuitive, players always matter more; it's the designer's job to make things more intuitive for them. Secondly, I don't think any designers would be thrown off by a "Commands" panel at all, because anyone who begins learning the language for the first time will learn about verbs from there and the connection will be obvious. To my mind, the potential of "Verbs" to throw off newbies is a lot greater. I speak from experience, here, because when I was new to BYOND, "Verbs" weirded me out too; I was thrown off for a bit. As Spuzzum said, other online games don't really use "verb" in their terminology, except things like MUDs. The term always struck me as a holdover from much earlier days; now that the engine has grown in power and variety of games, I think it's sensible to branch out and use a term that's more all-embracing. Lummox JR | |
Did anyone ask for my opinion?! Oh, well, here it is. I prefer the term "verbs" because it is short, descriptive, and it matches the same term used in DM. Unfortunately, although almost everyone knows what "verb" means, and although it is the superior word to use in this circumstance ... it's an ugly word. Yes--it all boils down to a trivial esthetic judgement! But how would you feel to have something you worked on for years and years discarded by people in their first glance at it, when they saw an ugly word like "verb" sitting right there on the main interface?! I'm not just talking about myself but everyone else who uses DM. Sure, they are all free to override the panel "category" name, but what is the point of a standard if it is always wrong by default? I would look at this differently. All of your old games have just been instantly improved a little bit without any work from you at all! And please don't get edgy about that. We don't have any plans for more changes behind your back. This was just one case where it had to be done before going "public" with BYOND or we would have made less of a good impression on new users, and that affects all DM programmers, whether they were already overriding "verbs" or not. --Dan | |
I would look at this differently. All of your old games have just been instantly improved a little bit without any work from you at all! All except "Verbman's Verb Odyssey in Verbland". I'm going to have to do some updating there. | |
FIREking wrote:
its not so much that im worried about this one small little word changing. Its the fact that this one simple thing is changing, something i dislike, and i fear that more and more things will keep changing, and no matter what i say, they change anyways. That fear of having things change in a way that i dont like, scares me. It is but the work of seconds for you to change it to Verbs if you want...so it's not like they actually removed an ability on you here. They improved almost all games with the change, so I'm not going to get too worried... Especially not after a years-long track record of constantly listening to the community on what should be added/changed about the system. Why they should leave a confusing thing in place just because it was always there is beyond me, especially when changing it doesn't preclude anyone from putting it back for themselves. And they've made it clear that all changes are on hold now. | |
I would look at this differently. All of your old games have just been instantly improved a little bit without any work from you at all! Don't worry about it. DM automatically scans the content of your text strings and determines whether your game has a "verbish" slant to it or not. I think in this case, it should be able to catch on fairly quickly. | |
Blame Dan! It was his suggestion! :O
I think he's right, though. "Commands" sounds a bit more intutitive, considering that only us game-designers will be familiar with the fact that these are called "verbs" in DM syntax.