thats why ill be working with other groups on byond, to show you what im capable of.
I have the blue book and certainly its helped, but im a hands on learner. I need to say what i need done, and to see it done with explanations of how the code works.. Thats why ive suggested to make a downloadable and interactive byond learning tool that literally mimics dream maker while viewing it in dream seeker. and explains as it goes through what the symbols mean, how the code relates to itself, why certain codes must be written certain ways. Now, that is what byond needs. its certainly what I need. Now, based on that, am I capable of giving goo descriptions of a finished project? | |
My experience with large groups working together on one project is that they spend so much time getting things organized instead of getting things done that people get tired of it and leave. Either that, or by the time the work actually comes around, they don't feel like doing it anymore.
The only way that you can reasonably expect anyone with any skill to work in a group is if you promise them money, and decent gobs of it. Not $20 a month, more like $2000. The only way to promise that is if someone already has the money to pay them with. So, I'd suggest that one person start a small programming company, make some money, hire more programmers and pay them with the money earned on the first games, make a larger project with the extra programmers, get more money, and on and on. Large projects are something that need to be worked up to if they're going to succeed. Time and time again I've seen people start up large projects with full intent of completing them, getting a crew together, and all that, but unless there is something solid to hold them together (like money), it isn't going to work. The only project like that which I have EVER seen completed without money being involved was done by 3 close friends, all very skilled, who decided they wanted to build something. Not a bunch of nobodies hired off a forum. | |
Dareb wrote:
yes, but unless you plan on completing LivingDead, that cant be counted. Then we'll count it. Trust me -- we haven't been ignoring L&D! | |
Dareb wrote:
Thats why ive suggested to make a downloadable and interactive byond learning tool that literally mimics dream maker while viewing it in dream seeker. and explains as it goes through what the symbols mean, how the code relates to itself, why certain codes must be written certain ways. Based on that, not necessarily. Making something that "literally mimics" Dream Maker in DS is impossible; making something that comes close is perhaps possible, but a huge undertaking. Making it explain meaning in code and the reasons for following certain practices is yet again a huge project. But describing a finished project isn't what you need anyway; you can describe your finished project to the nth degree and it won't help a whole lot, because what programmers really need is descriptions of how to implement the intermediate steps along the path to an end product. For example: You can describe what you believe to be the ideal MMORPG, with quest generators, big maps, etc., but programmers don't need to know so much about that; all that does is tell them which pieces they need. But you haven't told them how those pieces will be set up, like for example what kinds of quests are generated, and what variety may be available. Much more important than knowing what to build is knowing how. Lummox JR | |
Dareb wrote:
On top of this, good coders, etc don't work for free unless you got proof you know what you're doing (past game, etc). I don't even see how it relates to what he said, let alone that it proves anything. Essentially you've made a promise to keep your promises. Mathematically this is a null statement. Ultimately the intent to produce games isn't enough; even if you get people on board, a promise of future payoffs won't hold them. You'd literally have to start an actual company to do that, and get start-up capital with investors, so you could afford to pay salaries and whatnot. Lummox JR | |
Dareb wrote:
Nobody on this forum has the right to question my methods. Criticize, yes go nuts. but when you say Im wrong, or that itll never happen. You go too far. Isn't questioning your methods a lot less direct than criticizing them anyway? Questioning them is merely asking for more information, like how you plan to get around such and such a problem. Question or criticize, anyone on this forum has the right to do just that. We'd all really love to see a big project effort get off the ground, but I think that's also one of the reasons you've encountered so much pessimism about what you're doing: You don't seem to be acknowledging the flaws in your model, and it's gonna end up like any other that went before it. I'm afraid history has no examples of big projects coming to completion by idealism alone; ultimately someone had to handle resource management. What you've basically got is a desire to start a big project; what you don't have is a complete outline for it, or any indication how you're going to keep people on the project once they sign up. You'll likely be able to recruit people easily enough; the trick is holding onto them, and getting useful work out of them. These are questions that confidence doesn't answer. If you approach this from as realistic a perspective as possible, however, there's a much better chance you'll succeed, because you'll be prepared to cope with most of the obstacles that will spring up. Lummox JR | |
So you suggest that I start small by getting some money and hiring coders to make a level-based action fantasy (rpg as dullards call them *i mean no offense but rpg has no place in level based offline games with set story*)
And then once I complete that project, albeit small but profitable, I hire more coders to start making the online game? Meh, done before. I dont want to follow that track | |
What I just don't understand is why it needs to be a group project...
The only reason it would need to be a group project was if you wanted to get it finished faster by splitting up the workload... But the same things can be done by ONE creator that can be done by many... It would just take more effort on the part of that creator... So my suggestion for a first step is to start working on it by yourself... Plan it all out, and get to work... Of course, if there are certain problems along the way, feel free to ask for outside help to solve them... But you don't need to expect a group of people to keep working on the thing the whole way through... Don't want to do graphics? Code the game yourself, with some simple dummy graphics, and commission someone do the real graphics for you when you're ready to put them in... Don't want to do any code work? Then leave the game making to others... Do graphics for someone else's game... Can't do any of the above? Then plan out the game you want, and hand it off to someone who can...and let them take care of the rest... There's no true need to have a group (large or small) working on the same project no matter the size... Yes, it makes things easier as far as individual effort goes, and it's nice to have different perspctives and strategies to pick from...but ultimately, it's not needed... Just a convenience... | |
Just because I shouldnt release Classified Company Information doesnt mean I dont have it.. Do I have some of it? yes.. All of it? No..
And Unless the absolute idea were coded and compiled and then registered/copywritten(copyrighted) at least as a demo. Then and Only then could I ever reveal that kind of information.. Unless the coders who apply to become part of the *yet to be growing* company were of legal age to sign their signature or at least had a parent witness or sign for them. Im serious about getting into entertainment I merely dont have the cash for it. That is my only problem. I come to byond to look for young coders that other companies wouldnt take seriously so that in their spare time they could code for me. And Upon completion they get paid equally divided equally amongst the coders Including me and my partners, With the option to become a true employee and full time coder in the company. And even though I wont get coders right that wont stop me, it frustrates me to a degree that people dont see a good opportunity, but Ill remain here on BYOND despite all this and eventually when I do make my first online game. Ill return here to see if people want to take their chances | |
no, no/.
you misunderstand.. that road is used too often, how good can success really be if the path is already traced? | |
Dareb wrote:
Just because I shouldnt release Classified Company Information doesnt mean I dont have it.. Do I have some of it? yes.. All of it? No.. And their signature means what? A non-disclosure agreement you might be able to put some weight on, though proving monetary damages in the event of a breach would be difficult if you have no product. But my point is, you've really given no indication that you actually do have a solid plan. Most of the plans you've spoken about come across as vague, not just in the way you're presenting them but in actual fact. There doesn't seem to be any more than that. And until people can see that there's a solid plan, what's their incentive to get on board? Most have even more solid plans for games of their own. Im serious about getting into entertainment I merely dont have the cash for it. That is my only problem. I'd say it's the biggest problem, but not the only one. I come to byond to look for young coders that other companies wouldnt take seriously so that in their spare time they could code for me. And Upon completion they get paid equally divided equally amongst the coders Including me and my partners, With the option to become a true employee and full time coder in the company. What's scary is that you're looking at this as something with substance when it has none. Whether it might someday is a matter of speculation, and I can't speak to that; but for the moment, your company exists only on paper, and your project doesn't appear to even have that. Essentially what you're showing us is something we've seen from all the DBZers that pass down the pike: "My game is gonna be the best ever!" Much, much easier said than done. Heck, most of the people who make that boast don't even get off the ground. Most of them come into it with a handful of thoughts on how they might improve on something that's already there, but they don't even have a coherent vision in their minds; as a result they derail. I know it's frustrating right now, but the fact is that your company has no substance at the moment, and your project even less. You do have control over the project aspect: If you can get a solid project concept together (and I don't mean just the initial idea stage, but some semi-detailed planning), then and only then will it be able to gain substance. The company, on the other hand, isn't going anywhere without money, and no amount of wishful thinking is gonna change that. You're going to need both a solid company and a solid project to go forward. Lummox JR | |
If you don't want to take the road that's tried and tested and works, that's your problem. I'm not going to argue with you about it.
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I'm not sure what that has to do with my post, since I neither mentioned college graduates, nor graduated from college myself.
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Uhm, everything i state under Anarchy-games and all signatures I write bind me and my company to fulfill any promises agreed upon. Go ahead, do a search on Anarchy-games, registered 2000-2005. If you can't do the jobs you've agreed to do in exchange for set compensation, why would you be able to be counted on for honoring these other agreements? You also seem to put a lot of stock (or seem to think that we should put a lot of stock) into the fact that your company is "registered." Frankly, your whole pitch would be more impressive if you didn't keep falling back on this. If you had a solid plan that you were willing and able to defend against criticism, if you displayed the slightest understanding of the obstacles which face you and had ideas for overcoming them (no need to go into specifics if it's truly proprietary info, even broad strokes work fine), then you'd find people supporting you whether or not you'd taken any of the superficial legal steps that would make your vision "official". I'm surprised that you, the great "free thinker" of the forum who rants and rails against the constraints of society, you think that by registering your company you've accomplished something meaningful. Having a government rubber stamp is supposed to impress us? For that matter, is it registered with the government? Which government? What agency? What exactly is it registered as? What does this registration entitle you to and obligate you to do? All we know is that you're registered, but we don't know if this means you're registered as a small business, a purebred dachsund, a psychic. For all we know, Anarchy-games could be a registered sex offender. You tell us to search, but search where and for what? I guarantee if I type anarchy games into a search engine (with or without hyphens, spaces, etc.), I'm going to get hundreds of hits that have nothing to do with you, because if you had set out to purposefully pick the most common and obvious name for an amateur/semi-professional game company, you really couldn't have done any better. If you expect us to hunt down some obscure registry of Canadian business licenses or something and look you up to prove to ourselves that you're serious, then I need look no further: you're not serious. A serious entrepreneur has nothing to hide and nothing to lose by laying all of his or her cards on the table, letting his or her plan speak for itself. | |
Gughunter wrote:
Dareb wrote: Yeah our best L&D work so far has yet to be released...we're in the middle of an upgrade to the engine, and the UI, as well as refining the next level. I hesitated to list an unfinished game, but since it has more gameplay in it that most of the games on the hub, I figured it was fair. | |
Thats why Im laying these things down and waiting on that wishful thinking while I wait for the schools that I applied for to get back to me, aswell as writing more of my story, which at the time and for the last 5 years, has been more important to me than even earning money.
So, yeah, I have to wait. That's easy for me, I'm very patient when it comes to things im really serious about. | |
I can read code to an extent, and could probably advance upon those skills. But no matter how much I can read it, I can never write it down. Unless I know how to personally do everything I cannot do it. Not even start.
But sometimes people just cant get the money they need, banks give out loans for that purpose.
It takes alot of skill to do things alone, but it takes true strength to ask for help. Nobody on this forum has the right to question my methods. Criticize, yes go nuts. but when you say Im wrong, or that itll never happen. You go too far.