Chatters OPs abuse

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ID:190382
 
Jan 30 2003, 1:05 am
Nadrew said: Take it to the Chatters forum.

Um...no. Since this is a Community issue, and people rarely visit the Chatters forum, I will resurrect this thread to provide my response.

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As proprietor and temporary owner of the Chatters source, I say this:

After reviewing the conversation posted in the earlier (now closed) thread, it appears that while Dracimor was playing around, it certainly got out of hand - especially with the subsequent 'double-muting' (not actually possible) by Nadrew, which clearly was done out of some level of spite.

Chatters OPs are meant to 'keep the peace', meaning: to prevent abusive spammers, prevent or tone down excessive (and often uneccesary) foul language, and to prevent people from abusing unfixed program bugs.

The current generally understood policy is to provide 2-3 warnings to an offender, then ban the individual from the system. *Very* rarely are second chances given. If you cannot learn what is acceptable behaviour (as stated above by what the OP duties are), why should you be allowed back in to continue the offense?

OPs are not there to pre-judge, discriminate, or 'play-mute' people. Nor are they meant to use their powers to retaliate against other chatters for wrongs directed to them. Even I am a little guilty of this, and intend to set a better example immediately. It is clear that there are too many 'chiefs' and not enough 'indians' in the Chatters community.

Since both Dracimor *and* Nadrew have been known to stretch their authority in the past, even in jest (and certainly Dracimor remembers being called on this behaviour more than once), I hereby revoke OP rights for Dracimor (I believe Nadrew may have already done this) and demote Nadrew to a more controllable position. They might have such rights re-instated in the future, when it is proven that they can be more adept in their responsibilties. Xooxer may very well over-ride my decision.

Xooxer has made an excellent chat program, and I have no intention of letting it boil down to nothing more than an 'OPs Club'.

For future reference: The Lounge is nothing more than a starting place for entry into Chatters. If you really feel the need to spam, be vulgar and abusive to people, then feel free to make a room in Chatters to do that in. Doing so in the Lounge will just result in getting someone in trouble.

Chatters is meant to be a chat system for the community - not a 'members only club'.
Jan 30 2003, 1:10 am
Although I am friends with both Draci and Nadz, I have to support digi's decision, at least temporarily. Of course, it's Xooxer's chat program, so any final decision should be his! :-)
Jan 30 2003, 1:19 am
Actually I just banned myself from Chatters until Xooxer returns, no need to demote me. I can't really reply with what I really think because it'd probably get me banned from the forum.

But here is what I will say; you don't own Chatters, you're not even close to owning Chatters, I own more of it than you do. You have no right to tell me that something Xooxer told me to do is wrong, no right. Xooxer has already been emailed with what I REALLY think, and it's not very pretty, stop acting like you're above me, because you are far from it. I respect you for what you're doing for Xooxer, but frankly you're getting a bit high on yourself. So please stop acting like you own the program, and start acting like the person that is maintaining it in Xooxer's absence.
Jan 30 2003, 1:41 am
In response to Nadrew
Nadrew - I do not act like I am above you - on the contrary, my commentary is an effort to prevent all OPs in Chatters from abusing the powers they have. Baiting or tricking people into messing up just so that an OP/admin/moderator can ban them is low and cheap behaviour, plain and simple.

I know I do not 'own' the program. But Xooxer has released the source to me in the hopes that it will continue to be mantained and maybe even improved or expanded on. That, in my mind, gives me the responsibility to see that Chatters prevails as one of the best chat systems on BYOND. This, in turn, includes seeing that all OPs (including myself) try not to abuse the responsibilities given to them. Your actions were not responsible. Again, Xooxer may over-ride me, and that is his decision.

Having you email him your story is a cheap attempt at bias. I have nothing to hide. Oh, and I am fully aware of the possibility that you will try and 'take Chatters away' from me. You do tend to be a little over-possessive and hot-headed enough to try and convince Xooxer to do that. I have not taken anything away from anyone.

This is not some fight over a girlfriend. Xooxer released the source to me because he felt I would be responsible enough to continue development, or find others (as in AbyssDragon) to help me since I am quite new to DM programming.

Since Xooxer has FTP access to the source code on my server, he can remove it at any time, if he feels that I have overstepped my bounds.
Jan 30 2003, 1:45 am
In response to digitalmouse
You may not think you're acting like you're above me, but believe me you are, it's hard to see when you're doing it, but the person that's on the other side of it can see it pretty good.

And again, it was not abusing powers, abusing powers would be to mute/boot/ban random people for no reason, I had a good reason to do what I did, and you can't seem to see that.
Jan 30 2003, 1:49 am
In response to Nadrew
I beleive it is never a good reason to bait someone into being banned. Let their own behaviour screw them. Even if they do come back on another key. If they are true to form, it is an easy matter to ban the new comer. No need to trick them into doing it.
Jan 30 2003, 1:57 am
In response to digitalmouse
I did it because I really had a strong dislike for the kid, and since he said I had no reason to ban him before I decided to make a reason in front of more than one person. Just because you don't think it was right doesn't make it wrong. That's solely a matter of opinion, and my is different from yours, no reason to call it abuse.
Jan 30 2003, 2:30 am
In response to Nadrew
Waste of bandwidth! Take this argument to chatters!! :-p <small>I always wanted to say this</small>

-=Ken=-
Jan 30 2003, 2:56 am
In response to NeoHaxor
It is questionable whether this is a waste of bandwidth, but digital and Nadrew have pretty valid points. Yet I *have* seen abuse from most Ops, everyone gets a tad power mad at somepoint but Nadrew you shouldnt stop coming in because of your demotion, get above it.
Jan 30 2003, 2:58 am
In response to Maz
That's not the reason I'm not coming in, I just don't want to deal with digi anymore.
Jan 30 2003, 3:11 am
In response to Nadrew
Nadrew wrote:
I did it because I really had a strong dislike for the kid

There lies problem #1 - you did it for emotional reasons, which is never a good idea - that is why Mods in the BYOND.com forum are cautioned to not moderate posts they are involved in (something which you did with the recently closed Chatters thread that you were involved in - even discussed about)

and since he said I had no reason to ban him before I
decided to make a reason in front of more than one person.

Problem #2 is that you failed to provide a documentable reason for banning him - yes I understand he was vulgar to Crispy, and you were right to mute him or even ban him - as long as a *valid* reason was given. This does not mean to unmute/unban him just so that you can trick him into creating a reason to ban him - that is just plain unprofessional.

Just because you don't think it was right doesn't make it
wrong. That's solely a matter of opinion, and my is
different from yours, no reason to call it abuse.

It is abuse when you use an underhanded method (and consider it normal to repeat that method) to get a person to deliberately fail (in this case create a possibility for banning). That is the whole point here.
Jan 30 2003, 3:14 am
In response to Nadrew
Nadrew wrote:
That's not the reason I'm not coming in, I just don't want
to deal with digi anymore.

And you will be sorely missed. I've enjoyed our conversations, and with the exception of this recent behaviour, your OP-ing has been respectable. But as long as Xooxer has given me the responsibility of maintaining Chatters, it is only fair to make sure that Chatters does not degrade into a 'OPs only club'. Continuation of this 'baiting' practice will prevent Chatters from being more popular.
Jan 30 2003, 3:17 am
In response to digitalmouse
It wasn't personal emotion that made me dislike him, it was his actions in Chatters, I'm going to leave it at that.
Jan 30 2003, 3:20 am
In response to Nadrew
Nadrew wrote:
It wasn't personal emotion that made me dislike him, it was
his actions in Chatters, I'm going to leave it at that.

And there are better way of dealing with Trolls - you know this.

Entrapment techniques that cause people to be banned should not be policy in Chatters - not while it tries to gain a wider acceptance, and certainly not after it *has* established itself as the 'greatest Chat system on BYOND' !
Jan 30 2003, 3:52 am
In response to digitalmouse
Im sorry nad but i have to agree with digi, but that doesnt mean you should leave chatters, just keep your opinions and your job separate. I do like having you in there, you have to just stay away from the topic with digi, make him promise to shut up about it.
Jan 30 2003, 4:33 am
In response to Maz
Thats a funny thing with me, I only get powermad when I have no power. When I have it im the quietest and easy-going perceptive sly bastich
Jan 30 2003, 9:45 am
In response to Nadrew
"But here is what I will say; you don't own Chatters, you're not even close to owning Chatters, I own more of it than you do. You have no right to tell me that something Xooxer told me to do is wrong, no right. Xooxer has already been emailed with what I REALLY think, and it's not very pretty, stop acting like you're above me, because you are far from it. I respect you for what you're doing for Xooxer, but frankly you're getting a bit high on yourself. So please stop acting like you own the program, and start acting like the person that is maintaining it in Xooxer's absence."

"I did it because I really had a strong dislike for the kid, and since he said I had no reason to ban him before I decided to make a reason in front of more than one person. Just because you don't think it was right doesn't make it wrong. That's solely a matter of opinion, and my is different from yours, no reason to call it abuse."


So, Nadrew... having masterfully accomplished your goal of completely wiping out the carefully cultivated image that you're far more mature than others your age, what will you do next?

I mean seriously... go back and read your posts on this thread. Pretend you're reading posts made by someone else... it might help you to realize what you actually sound like: "You're not my mom, digitalmouse. My mom always cuts the crusts off my sandwich and she toasts the bread better."

digitalmouse doesn't act like he owns Chatters. If he owned it, he could do whatever the hell he liked with it and I'm sure would happily leave everyone else to do the same. He doesn't own it, though... he's just been left in a position of responsiblity for it. That's not nearly as fun as owning it, and it puts him in the position of having to make the hard decisions. Don't make it harder on him.
Jan 30 2003, 9:59 am
In response to Lesbian Assassin
**Agrees with lexy for once**
Jan 30 2003, 10:13 am
In response to Nadrew
ummm before i get confused with this thread, what the hell is chatters?
Jan 30 2003, 10:15 am
In response to KuckiemanJr
Chatters is an advanced chat program in the Games Live section that's striving for a place as the official BYOND chat.
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