Since this part of the thread is still present let me explain my point of view about why the horde of Dragonball and other poorly made (not including DWQ, FFO, GTAonline and a few others) fan games are a very bad thing to BYOND as a whole.
I'm out of high school and very much enjoy what BYOND has to offer. Since I find it the only(?) 2D rapid online game development kit available I mention it to friends and colleagues whenever the chance presents it's self. This includes people who program for a living (either freelance or employed by large companies). When I mention it to these people they are very interested and follow up by checking out BYOND. Guess how many have stayed around? None.
Why? #1 reason I've been told by most first hand. They say it's for kids (No disrespect to those who are or consider themselves still a kid, I was programming up simple BBS door based games in PASCAL when I was still a kid). Now what exactly makes BYOND for "kids"? Is it the development kit? Nope, that's based around an advanced C oriented programming language, no easy scripting here. Maybe it's because it's a 2D engine? Not that either, since when I bring up BYOND I know not to even mention this great software to those who consider true 3D the end all be all of modern day game development. So what is it that's keeping the BYOND community from maturing? Dragonball and Icon Trading/Building Games (the latter aren't very good examples of DM's power).
Maybe the two dozen or so people I've referred to BYOND just lie to me and say it's for kids when they really mean they'd stay if someone payed them $200 for working 6 months on a game. But I doubt it.
Yes, but is that really any reason that we should just leave them there, wasting Dantoms bandwith when it could be used for stuff better than this. Either we clean the hub and put up measures of control or remove the hub and make people host their game's site somewhere else. But who should decide what is better? I think console style RPGs are crap should we remove all of them? | |
Why? #1 reason I've been told by most first hand. They say it's for kids If they were that quick to shrug off BYOND they probably wouldn't have contributed much anyway. So what is it that's keeping the BYOND community from maturing? Dragonball and Icon Trading/Building Games (the latter aren't very good examples of DM's power). Guess what plenty of people made fan games in C/C++, there have been plenty of media sharing tools made in C/C++(ie: Kazaa, Napster, and many other), C/C++ has even been used to make viruses, explicit material, ect. But that doesn't keep people from using it now does it? There were no games other than a few demos when I started using BYOND. That didn't keep me from liking it since I liked the language itself and that's why people should start using it, not because of what games or applications that have been made by it. Because by that reasoning only a small group of people should be using C/C++. | |
The only people who will enter are people who have something worth competing with. How's that different from not having an entrance fee :P? | |
I really don't get why people keep claiming BYOND is comming to an end. From what it looks like to me there are more players and game makers now than there ever have been amd the number is growing at a steady rate. BYOND isn't even close to dying off. Even the BYOND hub suddenly blew up and Dantom vanished I'm sure there would be people that set up thier own BYOND sites and kept using it. I'm not in that camp. But I do know how the Internet works. More members is a BAD thing when no money is available to be made. The BYOND community needs players (not developers) with MONEY (of which older players spend more money). The more players the higher bandwidth and more CPU power needed. That costs money. I really don't think Dantom is interested in paying for more servers and a larger pipe just because the numbers are increasing (and yes I agree they are). Agreed as well that the DM software has a life beyond BYOND. But who doesn't want to see BYOND 4.0, 5.0, etc. Even if Dantom was nice enough to release the source code to everything in the kit. I can't name even one person in the current community who could continue work on the engine. | |
More members is a BAD thing when no money is available to be made. The BYOND community needs players (not developers) with MONEY (of which older players spend more money). The more players the higher bandwidth and more CPU power needed. That costs money. I really don't think Dantom is interested in paying for more servers and a larger pipe just because the numbers are increasing (and yes I agree they are). Anyone seriur about making a large amount of money off thier game would probably be smart enough to use thier own website and advertise from there as well as seeking a player base outside not only inside the BYOND community but outside as well. Also Dantom only provides a listing service which doesn't take up a considerable amount of bandwidth or server power. Agreed as well that the DM software has a life beyond BYOND. But who doesn't want to see BYOND 4.0, 5.0, etc. Even if Dantom was nice enough to release the source code to everything in the kit. I can't name even one person in the current community who could continue work on the engine. Heck I'm quite sure LummoxJR would as well as maybe AirMapster, Deadron, and Gughunter. | |
Theodis wrote:
There were no games other than a few demos when I started using BYOND. That didn't keep me from liking it since I liked the language itself and that's why people should start using it, not because of what games or applications that have been made by it. Because by that reasoning only a small group of people should be using C/C++. Unfortunately and especially on the Internet first impressions do make a difference in people's decisions. Dantom changed the site design a while back. I doubt they paid someone (or did it themselves) for the fun of it. | |
Theodis wrote:
Agreed as well that the DM software has a life beyond BYOND. But who doesn't want to see BYOND 4.0, 5.0, etc. Even if Dantom was nice enough to release the source code to everything in the kit. I can't name even one person in the current community who could continue work on the engine. I didn't say would, I said could. | |
Heck I'm quite sure LummoxJR would as well as maybe AirMapster, Deadron, and Gughunter. Though I don't know the extent of thier knowledge I'm sure they would be quite capable of doing it. But this discution is quickly getting pointless as I doubt Dantom is planning on choosing thier successors just yet. | |
Grei wrote:
So what is it that's keeping the BYOND community from maturing? Dragonball and Icon Trading/Building Games (the latter aren't very good examples of DM's power). I too agree there are too many "RIPPED" Dragonball games. But, you can not simply plain out say that ALL DragonBall derived games are crap. That's like someone saying that all Germans are bad because of a few past differences. Or, that all people from Texas are rednecks. And that all people from Africa are black. So, as you can see, not ALL DragonBall games are derived from the same source, and they're not all crap. So, please in the future if you're going to make a solid argument, make some REAL points instead of stating your (obviously biased) opinion which doesn't involve bashing. | |
Well, since you know that the DBZ games on the hub will kill BYOND, you are apparently from the future. It'd be more beneficial to go back in time even more and prevent the DBZ games from being made instead of just going back in time and complaining about them. BYOND is "bad" because people would rather complain about the lack of good games instead of making good games. Make a few good BYOND games, then go back in time to the early BYOND days and release the games, problem solved.
If seeing "Dragonball" plastered all over BYOND scares newcomers away, then you should stop complaining about it because you are just saying it even more, thus making it more likely for them to see it and be scared off. | |
Grei wrote:
Maybe the two dozen or so people I've referred to BYOND just lie to me and say it's for kids when they really mean they'd stay if someone payed them $200 for working 6 months on a game. But I doubt it. Im not saying its going to be a quick fix for all BYOND's problems and draw in all the master programmers, but a lot of BYONDers see $200 as a lot of money (They went nuts over 10 cents subscriptions). Its not meant to be this big chance to make money off the game, its meant to be a motivator. A reward for working so hard. Also a lot of them probably would stay if they thought BYOND was for kids, since all they have to do is beat some kids for some easy money. | |
Im guessing dead games that no one works on/plays anymore would waste that much bandwidth (I mean, its not like we are constantly looking at dead projects), just server space (And most dead projects wouldnt be too big).
Deleting DBZ entries wouldnt do anything. If someone is going to break copyright laws, annoy everyone, use stolen source code, ect, they are probably just going to create a new entry or not register their entry (Anything being publicly hosted shows up in Raw). | |
The lack of major games and the impact of fan games are mostly separate I think.
The large number of fan games probably does not help bring some quality programmers to the system. But more importantly, the lack of quality major games is probably a function of these things: - First, it's really really hard to put in the sustained effort to create a quality game. This is true in any game system out there. - Second, a good game designer or programmer looking at BYOND doesn't see games that meet the standard concept of how a game should look. They aren't stand-alone executables, they have the interface trappings of the system, etc. - Third, since BYOND is not built on client-side drawing or coding, things people typically expect to be able to do are either hard, impossible, or require an in-depth knowledge of the system. If we are to see more major games, then we need to demonstrate the following to potential game creators: - Even with the drawbacks (and all game systems have draw backs...ALL of them), the system does have the flexibility to do what you want. Games like Shapeshifter, Kwijibo, and DWO do help demonstrate this. We need more action and RPG-like games that demonstrate it, AND more casual games like high-quality card games and such. - Demonstrate the power of the system, which is related to the incredible language and the built-in multi-player support, as well as incredible HTML support that remains largely unexploited (you can do a GREAT looking interface for screens in HTML easier than you can on the map for sure, and we need to show that more). - Get more ability to make a game "look" the way people expect. I believe the in-progress 4.0 release will take steps in this direction. What this all comes down to is that the best way to make a change is for you yourself to get involved in game that will help demonstrate these things. Kunark has put together a team to do this, the DDT has re-energized itself recently to do this -- what are YOU going to do to help make this happen? | |
As I have said before, the Hub is not the thing killing BYOND's appearance, it is the Unpublished Games section, and the fact that old games that haven't been updated in a while or accepted don't have their hub entries erased.
I support the idea to dump unpublished games, and instead allow a misc beginning games channel to be brought in, where someone via a program can do quick accepts, after making sure it is not ripped (One way or another.), and it is not inapropriate. Either that or dump any unpublished games section completely, and make them need to test or host via the pager, alone, and with computer AI. | |
- Even with the drawbacks (and all game systems have draw backs...ALL of them), the system does have the flexibility to do what you want. Games like Shapeshifter, Kwijibo, and DWO do help demonstrate this. We need more action and RPG-like games that demonstrate it, AND more casual games like high-quality card games and such. I know my card games are at least ok quality, but do any of them register in the high-quality range already or would I need to do stuff like larger card graphics and the such for that? | |
I would really like to see a Kwijibo level interface for your card games. Looking at Kwijibo you wouldnt think it was made up of 32x32 tiles.
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Kunark wrote:
- Even with the drawbacks (and all game systems have draw backs...ALL of them), the system does have the flexibility to do what you want. Games like Shapeshifter, Kwijibo, and DWO do help demonstrate this. We need more action and RPG-like games that demonstrate it, AND more casual games like high-quality card games and such. I should mention, by the way, that on the face of it MLAAS would seem to qualify as an existing major game. It gets constant play by group of players long after release and is not fan-based, so the popularity is not based on a pre-existing group of players. We need more games that reach that level. I know my card games are at least ok quality, but do any of them register in the high-quality range already or would I need to do stuff like larger card graphics and the such for that? You've got a lot of hub entries! I tried Poker, but couldn't see the cards since there weren't multiple players and I didn't see anyone on to come check it out with me. But from what I saw here are some comments in terms of meeting the expectations we're discussing here: First off, you've clearly already done a lot of work to go beyond the typical BYOND game, by having appropriate text on the map, and putting some commands (like "start game") on the map where they'd be typically expected. To meet external expectations though, there are more steps to take: - The help, which looks very good, comes up in the default browse pane instead of a browse window. It is black text on white background, which just doesn't seem game-like...it's natural to expect a game to have a certain visual look and to apply that to the help content. Placing the help in a browse() window and doing some work on the appearance of it would go a long way. - The stat panels: I will no doubt be proven wrong in some cases, but if it's not an RPG or a text-oriented game, the stat panels are not something that are going to make sense to a player. In the case of Poker to join the game you actually have to hunt around until you find the command in the last stat panel, which just doesn't meet a gamer's expectations and doesn't feel like a professional game. Where at all possible, the stat panels should be removed and all commands should be moved to the map (with a say verb as the default state for the command-line unless it's a single-player game). DragonSnot was this way too, until the update we just did. I'd like to see more games like Poker and DragonSnot move to the approach of Towers of Brahma, with a HUD line at the bottom of the map where menu-like commands are found. I can't comment on the quality of the card images also because your multi-tile card hub entry is messed up...it downloads a .bmp that is corrupted or something. It would be very helpful to have a great Poker game, so I hope you'll keep working on this! | |
Deadron wrote:
You've got a lot of hub entries! I tried Poker, but couldn't see the cards since there weren't multiple players and I didn't see anyone on to come check it out with me. But from what I saw here are some comments in terms of meeting the expectations we're discussing here: You can use computer AI in the game to check it out, I think the command is "Summon Computer AI". Usually BYOND poker gets alot more players than BYOND Hearts and 31, and looks a bit better, but it isn't a game you can play very much without getting bored if their isn't regular players around. Not many players appreciate card games until they are older, which BYOND does not have a very large older population. First off, you've clearly already done a lot of work to go beyond the typical BYOND game, by having appropriate text on the map, and putting some commands (like "start game") on the map where they'd be typically expected. With the statpanels thing, I seem to have a collusion with how big the map is and how nice bigger maps are. If I make it any bigger, people with lower resolutions wont be able to see anything nearly as well, and if I have the map smaller or the current size, with all the commands I often have, it would really crowed the map for the fact that only multitile HUD buttons look good (In my perspective). I guess I am hoping for a HUD update in BYOND 4.0. I can't comment on the quality of the card images also because your multi-tile card hub entry is messed up...it downloads a .bmp that is corrupted or something. Hmm what does it display? When I test downloaded it, it downloaded just fine and displayed the cards and everything. Also I wont be using this till an imagry update in BYOND 4.0 because there is no way in hell I am going to multitile a whole deck of cards, let alone cut each into 32x32 chunks out of a .bmp :P | |
Yes, but is that really any reason that we should just leave them there, wasting Dantoms bandwith when it could be used for stuff better than this. Either we clean the hub and put up measures of control or remove the hub and make people host their game's site somewhere else.