There's nothing political about this. Me and Lummox may be respected by Dantom, but we're respected because we're trustworthy... you act like it's the other way around... like the only reason we're trusted is because we're liked. That might be how you run your servers or your little corner of the playground, but it's not how things work in the adult world and it's not how BYOND is run.
Fact is, neither Lummox nor I are out to win any popularity contests... and we really couldn't if we tried. We're not driven to be liked. We're driven to be right. We both have caused Dantom headaches in our conduct on the forums because we're passionate in what we believe in. The thing is, we have integrity. We've shown that we don't lie, cheat, or steal to accomplish things no matter how fiercely we'll argue over them.
And furthermore, in the field of BYOND politics, Lummox and I are on opposite sides of the fence as far as discipline goes. When we both come together and agree on something, that really says something.
I really hate the idea of BYOND bans. I hate the fact that such a thing is necessary. I think people should police their own games... you don't want someone in your game, kick them... someone disrupts your game, kick them, etc. When someone's abusing the BYOND system itself... individual game owners can't solve the problem by kicking them. They have to be kicked by BYOND.
I hate the fact that anyone abuses the system to the extent that this is necessary... but I hate to see the system abused even more than that.
That's the extent of what I'm going to say on the subject. We're not helping anyone here by drawing this out... you're certainly not helping Dracon look better and we're just drawing attention for copycats to come in and mess up other people's listings. Dracon can play innocent (at least, he's welcome to try)... but he knows exactly what he did. I'm betting you know, too, Goku... so why not just drop the act?
Dracon will be back on whenever those who make the decision (not me and certainly not you) decide it's time for him to get another chance. What he does with that chance will be up to him.
You people just don't seem to get it. Dracon has already been given many chances, all of which he has blatantly thrown away. If Dantom was any less lenient, he would have been banned months (perhaps years) ago.
A person's good actions do not necessarily counteract their bad actions. To take an example from the name of that petition, Saddam Hussein helped build a lot of infrastructure in Iraq; roads, power plants, and so on. Does that make him a good person, notwithstanding his numerous crimes against the people of Iraq? It think it's clear that it does not. And finally, "greatest games of all time" is highly subjective. He didn't help make Freedom Force or Grim Fandangom which in my opinion are the two greatest games of all time. He didn't help make Incursion or My Life As A Spy, which in my opinion are two of the greatest BYOND games of all time. | |
Goku72 wrote:
That's the thing, he DID NOT hack into it. Nobody's accusing Dracon of hacking. Crispy was using a hypothetical example, I believe, unless he's mistaken on the nature of the offense. He did nothing as far as I know. Dracon did nothing as far as a lot of people "know"--that is, they didn't see anything, just as you claim you didn't. In fact, about 6 billion people have no idea that he did anything; that doesn't mean that the several who did witness his actions are lying, or that your lack of knowledge about the incident is more important than what we saw. I say "just as you claim" because there's some circumstantial evidence tying you in with the incident as well. It's a lot more credible in light of the fact that you started this thread. But I say circumstantial because it was of a different nature than what Lexy and I saw. So, currently it's basically their words against his. And as I said earlier, it IS politics...since Lexy and Lummox are better well known and respected, their words will be the ones most heard. "Most heard" is a stretch, since the sum of what we saw hasn't been said to most people, and we haven't been very vocal about it as you have. Most believed, however, would be closer to the truth. Dracon has a bad history, and until last night I actually thought he was one of the success stories who'd transcended his days as a (two-time) forum-spamming troll. Gads I wish he had; he was somewhat productive in the community and was acting just fine, but what he did last night was not excusable. And it's not just the two of us who can back up what happened. Lexy had a detailed pager conversation with Dracon, and I got a page from him about the server as well. Another witness verifies that Dracon was the only one logged into that server for quite a while. So there's quite a bit of eyewitness verification that his key was up to no good; if he wants to try to toss us the old "It was my brother" excuse, he's got a good shot at being the 1000th person to use that one in the BYOND community this year. Lummox JR | |
Lummox JR wrote:
Nobody's accusing Dracon of hacking. Crispy was using a hypothetical example, I believe Yep. That example was purely hypothetical. | |
Crispy wrote:
Please explain how it's possible to kill someone over the internet. You obviously aren't too familiar with Shadowrun then =P. And about this Dracon thing, it just made a good day better. Now if only the Red Sox can beat the A's in the next game... | |
OneFishDown wrote:
Crispy wrote: Ha, ha. =P | |
Dracon isn't being treated any differnt then anyone else. Him saying he is being treated unfairly because of his disability makes me sick.
It's entirely irrelivent. | |
Dracon has done these several times and been warned, be it on him self for continuing to do it. It does not matter what he did, he ignored warnings and he payed the consquenses.
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Hmmmmm, I've read all these posts [While trying not to look at the author, all though you can tell when it's hedgemistress] and I'm still trying to decide. Sure, I believe he should be ban for at least a couple of months [only because of the things he's done in the past, if this was a first offense, I don't believe a ban would fit, but who's asking me?] but for Maniack to have to be banned as well, :-/
I have a question: What does this ban pertain to?: The Forums? All the games[hub]? Do they still have their pagers? | |
Airjoe wrote:
Hmmmmm, I've read all these posts [While trying not to look at the author, all though you can tell when it's hedgemistress] and I'm still trying to decide. Sure, I believe he should be ban for at least a couple of months [only because of the things he's done in the past, if this was a first offense, I don't believe a ban would fit, but who's asking me?] but for Maniack to have to be banned as well, :-/ I'm not sure about the mechanics of the ban. It may be necessary to ban them both because they share a connection. However I'll add for the record that I actually suggested banning MaNiAcK too, at least for a short time, because Dracon's actions were so far out of line as to suggest that he'd probably abuse his brother's access to the hub in the immediate future. This isn't for anything his brother's done of course, and nobody to my knowledge bears him any ill will; but because Dracon at the moment is acting in a way that severely harms BYOND, it would be prudent to cut off all his routes of access and only slowly reintroduce a few to see if he'll respect boundaries. I hope that MaNiAcK's ban is not directly tied to Dracon's, because even though I think it's a good idea (strictly for keeping out Dracon) it shouldn't be nearly as long--not if it can be helped. But it's quite possible that Dracon's behavior has had an unintended casualty. I have a question: All of the above. This is a full BYOND ban. As far as I know that means they can play games already installed on their own machines, and MaNiAcK can continue development on his game, but they can't access the hub. Lummox JR | |
You bring up a good topic here. It is not enough to have authority or popularity. There needs to be a structured penalty system in BYOND and for any punishments to occur there must be evidence and not just word of mouth.
Word of mouth is probably the most powerful thing in the world, it can build or break whole civilizations, yet in the society we live in today, word of mouth is not good enough to make any judgements. Perhaps in order to make BYOND a more civilized online community we should make a bann list public and have the evidence public for all to see the guilt. One thing I have noticed most people on BYOND are guilty of, excluding me and few others, is grudge holding. holding grudges is an act of the uneducated. after punishments are finished leave the past be. | |
Kujila wrote:
I would be more liable to belive such a claim if I could possibly see a screenshot, or have a detailed explanation of his 'malicious attacks'. Some of the worst accidents start from someone fooling around. you know your doing something wrong (things you should immediately stop if these words come out your mouth or are written) - "It's just a game" "I'm just goofing around" "I'm just having some fun" "Oh, it never hurt anyone" "I'm just playing a practical joke" "April Fools!" And is a ban called for? I think a couple month suspension would be better,... This isnt a public school board. they don't have suspensions so they only expel. consider that Dracon is simply... Expelled for a few months. ~Kujila | |
Dareb wrote:
You bring up a good topic here. It is not enough to have authority or popularity. There needs to be a structured penalty system in BYOND and for any punishments to occur there must be evidence and not just word of mouth. Evidence is basically in the form of reliable witnesses reporting something that could not have happened another way. There's pretty much no other way to gather evidence of a hub offense. In this case, Dracon's key was up to nefarious activity observed by 3 people. Going by "word of mouth", to take the expression at its true meaning, would be to ban somebody based on a rumor. I've never heard of such a thing happening in BYOND, on the forum or hub. All bans are based on accounts by reliable sources that a particular somebody is doing something especially destructive. Word of mouth is probably the most powerful thing in the world, it can build or break whole civilizations, yet in the society we live in today, word of mouth is not good enough to make any judgements. Um... whole civilizations? Like which ones? Perhaps in order to make BYOND a more civilized online community we should make a bann list public and have the evidence public for all to see the guilt. I'm not sure I see the point of that. For one thing it'd encourage more people to ask why certain people were banned, and in some cases they're banned because we don't want their actions to catch on. The last thing BYOND needs is for the trolls to get ideas. One thing I have noticed most people on BYOND are guilty of, excluding me and few others, is grudge holding. holding grudges is an act of the uneducated. after punishments are finished leave the past be. Education has absolutely nothing to do with one's ability to hold a grudge. It does come off as a bit insincere, though, to accuse "most people" of a fault of which you conveniently absolve yourself. (Especially since it's a fault that probably all humans carry to some degree.) I don't intend that as a slam, but it seems like sour grapes to even bring it up; you've been on the receiving end of some grudges, yet grudges really have nothing at all to do with the discussion at hand. This thread is basically about the Dracon situation, and not meant for everyone to bring up their pet peeves. If you're irked that people hold grudges against you, this really isn't the place to air it. Lummox JR | |
Word of mouth is probably the most powerful thing in the world, it can build or break whole civilizations, yet in the society we live in today, word of mouth is not good enough to make any judgements. How about the one with that guy who was always talking about stuff? | |
Goku72 wrote:
<font size=1>"The Petition against Dracon's banishment from BYOND Petition to Dantom was created by Society Against Dantom's Dogs And Mates (SADDAM)"</font> The peition for Dracon's banishment from BYOND was created by a bunch of bored people from Chatters. Some may not care, We don't. but Chris or Dracon as many of you know him as has been banned from BYOND for what we know not. Actually, we do. For those of you who care, We still don't. please sign this online petition that we'll be sending toDantom in hopes of unbanishment. Do you have to take the fun out of everything? http://www.petitiononline.com/homsar/petition.htmlhttp://www.petitiononline.com/dracban/petition.html <--Much Better Thanks for your understanding, Several bored people from Chatters | |
And, may I ask what you define as, "intelligent"? I still am curious as to how they could say Dracon was the culprit. I wish to know of these, "trusted sources". If they are like anyone else who doesn't like DragonBall Z, or anything else of that nature. They'd say "yep, sure did" to get another, "DBZer" out of BYOND. And, about someone saying that they saw only Dracon's key logged into the fake game under HrH's hub, how would they first off know it was he who created the false game? And, how would one know if he was in fact the ONLY one logged in, since you're invisible to the HUB by simply turning your pager off. So, I ask...what REAL proof does anyone have other than a bunch of stuck up "intelligent" people who believe they're better than someone else because of what they like. It sounds like an indefinite breach on one's human rights and a right to a fair trial. And, not to mention discrimination in some degree.
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Look at the petition to unban Dracon, it just oozes with intelligence. Besides, Dracon contacting Dantom about this matter is probably the only way that he'd get unbanned, and I doubt Dracon would go ahead and do something logical like that.
Human rights? Fair trial? Dracon was banned from BYOND, this isn't going to court. Dantom can ban anyone they want for any reason, or no reason at all even. It's their BYOND and they can do what they want. | |
I didn't say ALL DragonBall Z fans were too wise on words. But, what I'm saying is that judgement upon one and making it a precedent to impose that another fan is the same way. Just because one person acts like a moron doesn't seem fit to judge another because of their likes/dislikes. I just wish to see ACTUAL proof to what they have against him other than some one's word. I wish to see IP logs, screen shots...conversation's, etc...And all you give me is, "because we said so". I don't see that as a fit argument other than, "I've got power and you don't".
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Dareb wrote:
One thing I have noticed most people on BYOND are guilty of, excluding me and few others, is grudge holding. holding grudges is an act of the uneducated. after punishments are finished leave the past be. One thing I've noticed most people on BYOND are guilty of (which does happen to exclude me and a relatively small number of--but more than "a few"--others), is immediately blaming every negative reaction they recieve on a "grudge". The fact of the matter is, if someone finds you rude, offensive, or annoying now, they're still going to find you to be rude, offensive, or annoying one year from now, unless you actually change your behavior. That's not holding a grudge, any more than the cops are "just picking on somebody" if they bust them the day after they get released from prison. Few members of BYOND's community are actively interested in self-improvement of any sort, so most of them will happily blame any repeated punishment (even verbal ones) on the punisher's holding a "grudge", rather than admit to themselves that they're doing something wrong and need to stop. The only grudge that seems to be involved here (I'll give Dracon lip-service benefit of the doubt, although the only actual doubt I have is that I doubt there's anyone reading this who doesn't already know good and well what Dracon did) is a grudge on the part of Dracon vs. Lexy and the whole of BYOND. | |
I never said he hacked into anything. That was merely an example.
Hedgemistress's post should clear that up for you.
Have you ever stopped to consider there might be a good reason for why they are better respected?