Too much, or not enough?

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Dec 30 2003, 3:51 pm
I used to play 8Bit Mush, a MUSH online that was VERY very similar to what your explaining.

There wasn't MANY players, but the ones that were playing were absolutely addicted to it, spending more hours on the game then a junkie for EQ does.
Dec 30 2003, 6:06 pm (Edited on Dec 30 2003, 6:38 pm)
Hedgemistress wrote:
like Hedgerow Hall, there's nothing you're "supposed to do" except what you want your character to do.

The most fundamental rule of gamer philosophy is that a game has any form of combat or direct head-to-head competition at all, it most certainly does have something you're "supposed to do". I would advise taking very great pains to make combat as dangerous, risky, and demanding as it possibly could be made. A very heavily fighting-oriented character who runs up to a random player on the street and attacks should not have a 50-50 chance of killing them, accomplishing anything that could be considered "winning", or even of surviving... the odds should be quite a bit lower than that.

[EDIT] Oh yeah, as to the "four categories of players"... I think the "Explorer" category is often taken much too literally. The essay on the subject that was linked to a couple of weeks ago dealt with "explorer" type players in a much more general sense, focusing on experimentation and gathering of knowledge rather than physically exploring a map. By nature, this sort of game holds a lot for such players.
Dec 30 2003, 6:42 pm
In response to DarkView
That brings me to a topic I've completely overlooked, what sort of Vampires are you using?

Ah, but there's the thing... being Hedgemistress, I also loathe "fan games" and unauthorized copies. Parodies and tributes are one thing, but I would never lift Joss's vampires literally. So, game face and dust == big no. Those are the two most unique parts of the Buffyverse vampire vision.

A better way to pay tribute to Buffy the Vampire Slayer is to do what they did and create a unique vampire, rooted in both mythology and pop culture... something which, being Hedgemistress, I'm in an excellent position to do. Did you know that before F.W. Murnau's magnum opus Dracula rip-off Nosferatu, the term "nosferatu" referred to creatures of the "seductive stranger" rather than the "rat-like ghoul" persuasion, and no one had really articulated the idea that sunlight would burn and kill vampires?

These vampires, when newly sired, look completely human and can even bear direct sunlight indefinitely (although it retards their supernatural healing process)... each human life they take, though, taints their soul, making their undead condition harder to mask and lowering their resistance to the hated rays and holy symbols. You can choose to play as an older vampire, which gives you more skill points to start out with but also a darker soul. Their bite attack is not much of a combat maneuver... very difficult to pull off on anyone who isn't already incapacitated, but heals them, gives them a short physical boost, and staves off their thirst. Blood from a bag or the butcher's shop is only good for the thirst... it's the life force that actually heals and strengthens them.

Mental/mystical powers vampires possess are all the result of their own psychic or magical abilities, not "vampire powers", although the potential for these skills are passed on to those they sire, which can lead to "blood lines" of powerful wizards or seers.
Dec 30 2003, 6:45 pm
In response to Mystic Water Mouse
Hmmm, maybe Lexy should add in thermal sensitive eggs which hatch releasing a small parasite that attaches itself to the face of nearby creatures and incapacitates them while forcing a small embryo into its stomach, which hours later will grow into a small worm like creature and explode from the chest of the a poor sap who hosted it. Oh wait, thats a joke.
Dec 30 2003, 7:03 pm
In response to Mystic Water Mouse
Your entire post reminded me of the episode of Clerks where the script was lost in the mail and the Korean animators had to make up the rest of the episode.

One, I'm not going to pad the game out with a bunch of worthless fluff skills. You can buy little sheets of origami paper which have a "fold" verb attached to them that lets you make little mantises and swans and things, but there's no skill involved, it's a simple attribute check that determines whether you get a wad of paper or a frog... lots of little interactive-but-useless items are used to flesh out the stores and item lists, but that's because you can always buy junk whereas you can't always get more skills.

Two, if I were going to bother to make a skill prerequisite system, I wouldn't do it to accomodate fluff skills.

Three, I'm not going to waste processing power on AI for background animals that do nothing, and no, I'm not going to make them do something. Likewise with homeless people. This is a smallish town, not a megalopolis. Also, did you miss the part about demon hordes periodically rampaging through town? That's why there's no homeless people.

Four... "Make the cities..."? Again, you missed the part where I said the setting was a small town. A. One. Singular. Uno.

Five... Overseas stuff? See point four.

Six... two months to memorize a training manual for one experience point in the skill... means nothing in this game. I love it when people suggest additions to systems when they don't know what system I'm using. And FYI, the game clock is the real world clock. One minute equals one minute. Two months equals two months.

Seven... poking a wall is your idea of a puzzle? Didn't you say something about being easily bored? I find the two statements hard to reconcile. I have my own style of puzzle. It's called, "Figure out how to kill the undying corpse-like rodent beasts that keep washing up on shore before one of them finds the amulet of Yum-Toreth." I really think I like my puzzle better.

Eight... don't allow a wsay verb? Oh, but I always put wsay verbs in my games, especially after I go through the trouble of programming cell phones, email, pagers, telepathy, communication magic, scholarly publishing, graffiti tagging, smoke signals, morse code, and the pony express. Fine, I'll take out the wsay verb.

Nine... tons of verbs? How about just one: emote. Rhymes with "remote."

Ten... see point nine. Of course there's a dance club, I wouldn't live in a world without one... but why bother coding in a system for something that can and should be roleplayed? There's also a more noisy bar type club, but that's just so I can use my random band name generator...

Eleven... there is a beach. You can emote playing in the sand if you want to, I just put it there so rich people would have some place to have houses and evil stuff would have some place to wash up.

Twelve... let you know if I like your ideas at all? Okay. I'll let you know, some day.

Seriously, it's like you read the first few paragraphs and then stopped paying attention. I don't think you "get" what this game is about at all... I have a skill that lets you gain power by eating your enemy's heart and you want me to put in arts and crafts.
Dec 30 2003, 7:04 pm (Edited on Dec 30 2003, 7:11 pm)
In response to Hedgemistress
Something I always thought that would make an interesting take on vampires is that what if a vampire was so powerful that it gained a secondary life after its immortal one was destroyed. Such as a vampire's magical ability destroys its need for its old physical form and creates a new one that is more demonic based on how evil the vampire is. Such as, if a very evil and powerful vampire is destroyed without the presence of holy symbols, perhaps its intensity of evil could allow it take a new form and have a second chance as an even more devilish looking creature that is not shaped as a human but more as a brutish animal of the sort to show its true nature. Also, what would a vampire need to do to make it lose its originally dark nature and become good? Perhaps vampires who dedicate themselves to a lighter culture and good deeds could slowly lose their blood thirst or at least weaken its grasp and become more resistent to holy objects and sunlight. Maybe add in a Charisma type of status which has a level of randomness for human characters and a level of alignment for vampiric characters, such as evil vampires being able to use spells to change their charisma and come off more human and friendly when they need to be, and good vampires losing the ability to hide their clean cut and kind look since they already seem very nice.


This could add to a whole new element instead of just having players go vampiric for the physical attributes and extra fighting ability. Persay, you could even have these good vampires be able to lend humans their healing abilities for short periods of times to work in a way as healers. Also, adding in some other supernatural creatures wouldn't be to bad. Such as humans who are very psychic sensitive could perhaps have the ability to see hidden mobiles who come off as ghosts and perhaps they themselves in death could become ghosts who lose their ability to interract with the physical world besides talking to people and acting as a guide for characters they select to aid. I would be very interested in wandering around the enviroment and helping players learn about the world around them when I choose to. Voodoo would be a rather cool thing to see too. Have it a very painfully hard to follow faith that requires the player to immerse him/herself in documents and explore the homes of ancient voodoo practitioners in order to learn the teachings and true uses of it. Perhaps have a fraudulent mobile system where you have mobiles scamming people with fake instructions on proper Voodoo worship and use.

[EDIT]Actually, an addition to my thought on vampire transformation, perhaps have extremely good vampires turn into angelic type creatures who carry their own dark nature, being mortal at one time then an aid of satan, they wouldn't be totally good, but they wouldn't have much evil in them. Maybe make them gain resistance to holy items and have vampiric regeneration, but require specifically evil souls to survive in the mortal plain, and have the ability of flight perhaps. Plus it should be rather uneasy to attain without proper levels of faith and a very high natured good alignment.
Dec 30 2003, 7:10 pm
In response to Hedgemistress
Hedgemistress wrote:
each human life they take, though, taints their soul, making their undead condition harder to mask

Do you mean in an "the force is strong in this one" way, or a "Holy crap that dude has horns" way? I'm guessing the first, since you mentioned that the people would have no idea who is and isn't a Vampire.



and lowering their resistance to the hated rays and holy symbols.

Does this increase there darker skills as well? As in sun == bad, vision at night == good.


You can choose to play as an older vampire, which gives you more skill points to start out with but also a darker soul.

Would it be possible to start as an older Vampire, but not a dark one? You mentioned that good/evil is all up to the player and just because you're the spawn of Satan doesn't mean you're a bad guy.
If so what are the pros/cons?


I also have a suggestion for character points. Don't make one universal type of CP. Still make it so that at the end of the week you get X amount, but make it so how many of them are what type is dependant on your actions over the week.
So if I was to do a bunch of meditation and some working out I'd get 8 "Intellectual Points" and 2 "Physical Points". Whereas if I just did metitation I'd get 10 IP.
Also to increase certiant skills I'd be required to pay several differnt types of CP. So to learn "Magic punch" I'd have to use 2 IP and 1 PP, since "Magic punch" uses both, but slightly more of one.
That way you actually have to follow some sort of "real" path when it comes to learning. In HrH I could go out and fight for an hour, then go spend my points on a brand new writing skill.


Sorry if I'm rabbiting on about the less important stuff, I'm just really interested in this game (I think I enjoy your proposals for games more then the actual games =P ).
Dec 30 2003, 7:21 pm
In response to Hedgemistress
Hedgemistress wrote:
Your entire post reminded me of the episode of Clerks where the script was lost in the mail and the Korean animators had to make up the rest of the episode.

Great, now I feel the need to watch every episode of Clerks again... Who is driving? Bear is driving! Oh no! How can this be?!
Dec 30 2003, 7:43 pm
In response to Leftley
Yeah, yeah.

As far as explorers, go... yeah, I read through the article at work today, and I think this game will have quite a bit for explorers in the broader sense. Aside from the random weirdness to discover, there's also a lot of mechanics packed into the game... I think there will be an interesting explorer/socializer dynamic, since one of the things to "explore" is up-and-coming player characters and one of the things to socialize about is the new monster/treasure on the scene.

Valid points on combat.

First, it's fairly easy to escape from a fight and very rare that anyone will be taken down quickly, so most fights to the death will only happen because both sides are committed.... this takes care of the case where a combat-skewed character attacks someone at random who actually is a non-combatant... the other case is when they attack someone who looks harmless but doesn't bleed or die when they hit them... it's very possible to get into a fight that you can't win, against someone you can't kill, if you don't do your homework before attacking.

Things are skewed a bit towards the humans in that the more physically powerful a monster is, the more recognizably monstrous it is... a monstrously visaged demon could wipe out a non-combat-optimized human quite easily, but the demon can't tell whether the human is combat optimized nearly as easily if the human can tell that the demon is unspeakably powerful.

The time required to heal is enough that no exchange of blows where blows are actually exchanged is completely pointless... if your quarry runs off, you can still say that you gave them something to think about. It's also easier to steal from someone who's engaged in combat with another character... generally, stealing the amulet doesn't mean killing the person who has it, it means having one person fight while another one grabs.

There are weapons like guns and stakes which carry potential "instant death", but only on a very lucky, perfect shot, and since combat is assumed to be close quarters, guns aren't much good once combat starts... plus guns have the same effect as big orange skinned demons... someone openly carrying one is going to make everyone wary... and there's still the factor of making sure you know what you're shooting at... silver bullets won't do much against a Vampire or Demon.

There's also spells that can potentially be "death spells", but if you pump an attack spell up to that level, you're not going to be casting anything for several hours afterwards, and if you're any class other than Fae, you're likely going to have to spend several days in a row doing various preparations and prayers to get that kind of oomph... and Fae aren't physically very powerful and have numerous reasons to hide their true nature (good old fashioned "thief stigma", and the fact that humans can gain huge magical power boosts by killing them).

At the same time, I don't think the archetypical "killers" will be out of luck, they'll just have to go for quality of the kill rather than quantity... plus, as the article mentions, "killing" is more about unwanted influence and dominance of the game... there's many a way to piss in somebody's Cheerios, and not all of them involve violence.
Dec 30 2003, 7:44 pm
In response to DarkView
Great, now I feel the need to watch every episode of Clerks again...

You make it sound like there's hundreds...
Dec 30 2003, 7:48 pm
In response to Hedgemistress
So... about how finished is this game, and is there any timeframe for when a demo will be openly testable? :)
Dec 30 2003, 7:57 pm
In response to DarkView
Would it be possible to start as an older Vampire, but not a dark one? You mentioned that good/evil is all up to the player and just because you're the spawn of Satan doesn't mean you're a bad guy.

I use the not unreasonable assumption that the longer a vampire has unlived, the more people they would've killed... whether because they're a vicious predatory monster (who's had a slow couple of centuries... it's assumed your character didn't do much of importance before coming to town), or because they found themselves forced into a bad situation or had to act to protect themselves from overzealous humans. Being a good vampire doesn't lessen the burden of having taken life... if anything, they would feel it more... and having been slightly tainted would put them in more danger of being exposed, which just increases the cycle.

Not quite a "Holy crap that dude has horns" way, or even a "That dude has Nosferaface" or "That dude has cloven hooves" way that the elder vampires on Buffy got... it increases the chances that non-educated characters will recognize that they're not quite human, and those with appropriate skills (any of a number of lore skills, or even medicine) may notice that they're undead or specifically vampires.

As for the character point thing... points are rewarded for meeting specific "participation" goals, rather than for skill use or practice. If unrealistic skill advancement bothers you, then don't advance your skills that way. :P

It is possible to gain a short term bonus to skills by studying (mental) or practicing (physical)... by repeating these exercises each time you log in, you can keep your skills "at their peak", but they can only be permanently increased through experience.
Dec 30 2003, 8:00 pm
In response to Hedgemistress
These vampires, when newly sired, look completely human and can even bear direct sunlight indefinitely (although it retards their supernatural healing process)... each human life they take, though, taints their soul, making their undead condition harder to mask and lowering their resistance to the hated rays and holy symbols. You can choose to play as an older vampire, which gives you more skill points to start out with but also a darker soul. Their bite attack is not much of a combat maneuver... very difficult to pull off on anyone who isn't already incapacitated, but heals them, gives them a short physical boost, and staves off their thirst. Blood from a bag or the butcher's shop is only good for the thirst... it's the life force that actually heals and strengthens them.

I anticipate at least a subdued shriek at mentioning this movie, but do the vampires of this world employ Blade-like human "familiars" who obtain blood and tools for them, with the promise of being turned into a vampire for their servitude? Or would a vampire just sooner bite one of them and be done with it?
Dec 30 2003, 8:02 pm
In response to Jon88
The game systems are about 90% done... I'm sure there will be holes that only become exposed when other people test them, though. The game world is about 10% done... basically, I have special room types (anything that requires custom coding) and their immediate environments defined, I just kind of need to stitch them together, which is difficult because I'm a bit spatially challenged. I've been drawing a lot of diagrams in notebooks, I want to have a very solid picture of the world before I try setting it down.

What I'll probably do for the first public test is a "Micro Demo", with only humans and lots of extra skill points and money for everyone, let people go nuts on the world's infrastructure... see how it holds up with everyone buying houses and sending email and stuff at the same time.
Dec 30 2003, 8:06 pm
In response to Spuzzum
Blade wasn't bad. Nothing like the comic, but if you've read the comic, you'd know what a blessing that is. The second movie was basically a video game with lousy controls.

As for vampires keeping "familiars", dunno... that's up to the vampires. Human characters get most of their power from their skills and their greater access to human resources... things that they substantially lose if they're turned. I'd think, by and large, someone who wants to be a vampire would start as a vampire, but if someone wants to roleplay a wanna-beast, more power to them.

Alliances between humans and vampires, though, is a definite possibility. If the vampire handles the heavy lifting and the combat, the human will have all this blood just kind of sitting around, going to waste...
Dec 30 2003, 8:08 pm
Sounds really cool, when will the beta be out?

But what time period is the game set in. You mention cell phones, email, etc yet you also mention evil monsters and such. Is it kinda like a buffy-verse thing? Evil demons in modern times?

And definetly add books! I would love to write up the tales of Mumbo the wizard for someone to read, and if it is at all possible you should get someone you trust on BYOND to review the books and add them to the library so others can read them as well. ie. I write a small book of poetry, the reviewer selected by you reads it and makes sure there is no vulgar language, etc in it. It goes into the library and can be taken out by other players. The easiest way to do it would probably be a list that books are just added to, and books can be withdrawn from the library that are on the list.

Im really tired right now so if the paragraph above does not make sense tell me and I will try to explain it better.


I hope this mud turns out to be really good, because the MUD I used to play (called arnarcy or something like that, it started with letter A) shut down about 2 years ago and i havent found a better one since.


well those are just my thoughts,
happy programing,
Jermman
Dec 30 2003, 8:12 pm
In response to Hedgemistress
Hedgemistress wrote:
points are rewarded for meeting specific "participation" goals, rather than for skill use or practice.

I get that, but what I meant was that you always get the same amount of CP, it's just gives you it in differnt types depending on what you did during the time between reaching the goals (Nothing would be automatically allocated to a particular skill).
To use HrH as an example, if I burrowed 70% of the time, and enchanted crystals the rest, I'd get 70% of my new SP in "physical SP", and 30% in "intelligent SP". While the actual number of SP I get total is never actually modified.
That way players can't field jump, but are still in control. I guess you'd have to make it so that learning a base level skill could be done using any type of CP, since you wouldn't be able to get more Int CP without knowing an Int based skill.
Dec 30 2003, 8:27 pm
In response to Jermman
Buffyverse-like in that it is modern times, it does have a barely-hidden subculture of magic and horror, etc... actually, the Buffyverse world is basically a comic book universe with a little more secrecy than normal. In addition to the mystic stuff, there's also cyborgs, robots, mutants, etc... they just didn't get mentioned as much because Sunnydale is a mystical center.

Angel, based out of L.A., has dealt with more non-magical weirdness, like Eletro-Gwen (evidently a mutant), the recent incursion of Mortal Kombat style cyborg assassins, and my favorite episode of this season, "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco", which featured a washed-up Mexican wrestler who was the only surviving member of a superhero team from the 50s, who fell on hard times and eventually ended up delivering mail for an evil corporation. Very The Tick-like episode. Good times.

But I digress.

I've got some long weekends coming up, so I might have something playable soon... probably not, though. This is the game that I committed to not hosting until it's ready, and that was like, 2001. I'm only opening up discussion because I'm kind of at the "last crossroads" in design here and wanted to make sure I was moving in the right direction... the game has gone through several shifts already... like the whole random artifact/monster thing... I originally conceived of having a set number of predefined artifacts that were all shards of an unspeakably powerful and evil thingy, but then it's like... what do I do when someone gets one and logs out for three weeks?

Worse, what if someone does get all of them? Game over?

Then I toyed with the idea of making coherent chains of random events that lasted for about a week and always started on Tuesday. That seemed like a nice homage, but kind of pointlessly silly and takes some punch away from prophesy and precognition... "The crisis will happen on... Tuesday!" "What, again?"

I also had the "life sim" aspect of it cranked up for a while, to the point where you had to wash your clothes or they would degrade, and you had to act out your job for at least a little bit each day to get a full paycheck (if anyone wants a tight telemarketing code, I can put it into a library)... decided that was the wrong way to go.

I think based on the responses I'm getting, my fears that people will find the game pointless or boring were definitely unfounded, and where I've got things now will probably be a nice balance.
Dec 30 2003, 8:38 pm
In response to Hedgemistress
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that instant death, even if it is VERY rare, will NOT be liked by ANYONE except griefers who will randomly shoot people, hoping to get that lucky shot and kill someone.
Dec 30 2003, 8:47 pm
In response to Hedgemistress
Well sorry, I was just trying to help. I've played too many MUDs that could have been good, but ended up flopping cause everyone got bored. I'll just shut up and leave now.
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