I am inclined to agree... though I know we wouldn't agree on the full extent of our moral beliefs, I believe you are right in that right and wrong are unwavering, sharply defined (even if we lack the tools to immediately discover where the sharp definition exists, especially in complex situations) constants... and I am almost entirely certain you are right in saying that your or my fallibility does not render us incapable of noticing points where others have fallen.
I would offer another way of looking at "gray areas" that may appeal to you: people and circumstances aren't truly gray any more than morality is... it's just an exceptionally fine dither pattern. :P In any "morally messy" situation, the right and wrong are still sharply defined... a million tiny parts of it might be entirely right, and a million tiny parts of it might be entirely wrong. The "gray" is only there because we can't see clearly enough.
Elation wrote:
Crispy wrote: Stop projecting your problems onto me, boy! >:D | |
Hedgemistress wrote:
You'd do a much better job convincing me that you're not defensive and that I'm the one getting upset if you didn't take the time to bold your entire rant, call me mean, compare me to Hitler (elsewhere in the thread), hypocritically condemn me speaking my opinions (unflattering as they may be to you) as an attack on you while standing up for your right to speak yours (unflattering as they may be to the vast preponderance of women in the world, and now to me directly), and slight my intelligence. :P But points for effort. But, but it was so much fun doing so! To the contrary, both you and I have every right to assume who's a jerk or who's good or bad. An assumption is both an opinion and a hypothesis. We all certainly have the right to form an opinion, and we have the responsiblity to form hypotheses, insofar as we have the respsonsibility to think. responsibility only exists within the bounds of society. Watch where you go with that word. Every right to assume? Where do you get this stuff? Assumptions kept to yourself are good, yes. Assumptions are a way for us to end up not doing something stupid like telling someone who's very edgy they're ugly and stupid. Or, figuring out if someone is a good person or not and protecting yourself from them until proven wrong. Form an opinion or hypothesis all you want. However, assumptions are very rarely a good indication to attack someone unless as clear as day (he's holding the weapon he plans to murder someone with, or any other sort of clear as day indication). Even then in a lawsuit happy society I wouldn't even go that far unless you were willing to sacrifice yourself for another. It is possible to misuse assumptions... for instance, using them as the ending point of your thought process rather than the foundation.... or making one which contradicts available information and/or which we cannot defend rationally. All of my assumptions thus far have been backed up by the information that was available at the time they were made. Thus, it was not a mistake to make them. Stereotyping and assuming is a good way to quickly put someone in a class file, and then use the info you've already gathered about that class on how to treat or act around them. I think you need to just burn your class file on everyone and open your eyes. My information was vague, and to blurt out the assumptions you did was not a sign of intelligence or rationality. You immediately assumed because I manipulate people that I am evil (which has no connection at all unless my intentions are evil, as manipulation is an action thus it is neutral). My manipulation has never ever hurt anyone. You manipulate people all the time and conciously do it, and you'll even be hurtful. A lot of people will go shopping with their parents and take advantage/control the situation so that they get something out of it. Others will play guilt trips, act sick, or even lie to get others to do what they want. This is the context from which I derived my version of manipulation from. No one gets hurt, and in fact I think majority of girls I've dated have had a really good time with me as I am nothing but a nice person when I'm with them. Just because I don't want to be with them long term does not mean I am a bad person. I could be happy with anyone long term as long as I have the right mind set about it. I always tell myself, if I can't be happy then I'm failing at life since that seems to be one of the major points. It would be a mistake to fail to make any assumptions on which to base judgement due to incomplete information, for complete information never exists. It would likewise be a mistake to reject new information on the basis that it conflicts with a previous assumption. Yes but think A'priori for pete's sake. You used no logic once so ever for your actions, even if your assumptions were right. As for the board being better administrated... the number of my own posts I've immediately deleted or edited because I reconsidered them and realized they were inappropriate is almost certainly in the triple digits. The number that were so affected by other moderators is in the single digits... and that digit may be perfectly symmetrical. I won't swear to that last part, though. My memory is not the best for specifics. that's what worries me, that you're actually throwing around what your mind believes to be reality when I doubt you can even help yourself. These attacks on others are a good indication of self infliction as well as puting others down to make yourself feel better inside. Were you ever suicidal when you were younger, I wonder? I bet you see a lot of people as just pawns, and look down on them like ants. I bet you're the type that thinks the rest of the world is dumb in comparison. With the exception of a few of your friends which you actually find them "worthy" to open up to and try not to loose them for the world. I could go into more about what I think about you but it's utterly pointless and most likely wrong because I'm a dumb person, right? It's stupid of me to actually believe that, even if my assumptions are true. It does no good to tell someone something like that without providing a good medicine for their troubles. That's why you're not a psychologist. Using psychology as if you are a certified doctor and an able body to do so isn't the best of practices. My sister and brother are highly intelligent, and have studied psychology for years and I don't even feel they're able bodies (except for maybe my other sister Lu). Spouting off psychology can be very dangerous, Yet you spout off about being morally right... I think you've got no clue about morals and shouldn't ever try to preach anything. Just because you've read a lot of books doesn't give you the ability to apply the knowledge and it definately doesn't make you smart. There's a definite distinction between knowledge and intelligence. To touch on one other minor point: people online are people offline. Really. Every body you connect to online is an actual living human being... either that, or the Turing Test needs a serious recalibration. this is completely based off the idea that they want to be themselves at that point in time. I've role played females, kings, slaves, orcs, and all sorts of other characters online. Test's aren't all that accurate, because there's a lot of exceptions. The difference between how you behave on the internet and how you behave in "real life" is not due to any differences inherent in the people you meet there, but rather, within yourself. It isn't a good indicator at all. I don't exist until you apply meaning to me, meaning that I am just an alias until you apply a face to me. That face, is usually based off someone or something you've seen/visualized or whatever at one point in time and you relate me to that image. Your mind can't just randomly visualize exactly how I am or look. Since emotions can't be applied to actual sentances without the knowledge of how to do so with just typing, how do you know when someone is serious or joking? How about being cynical, or just plain dumb? There's a lot of lines that can be taken as a multitude of things. Not everyone takes writing classes, either. As a learned student of psychology, no doubt you're familiar with the experiment in which the subjects were given buttons they were told were connected to electrodes in the next room that would anonymously shock people at an increasing voltage, and that they were free to push the button as often and as long as they wanted without fear of reprisal? Even if you never read about it in school or heard of it around the dinner table, I'm sure you caught it mentioned in discussions of the situation in Abu Ghraib... anyways, how does this relate to the topic at hand? except, was I causing harm by my joking around? My fun with you? If you admit that I did cause harm to you then I guess that is just a good indicator of, "Treat others how you'd like to be treated" as you seemed to have shown me how you wanted to be treated way before I ever replied maliciously to any of your posts. Morality is usually based on negative and positive conotations to a situation. Yours was negative from the start, and never stopped. We could also say that it is human nature for someone to get defensive after an attack and fight back. Self defense, even if it is over ideas is natural. I could rationalize a lot and so could you, but we wouldn't really get anywhere since there's plenty of rebuttles to this failed logic. Looking back over your posts, I'm struck by how... mercenary... you are in describing human relationships. It's all about gain and risk, and particularly tellingly, how much you can get away with. Taking this attitude and applying it to your remarks about the internet... it's really not a pretty picture. If you were less defensive and more self-assured about it, I'd say you were a borderline sociopath... but as it is, you're so touchy about this that I have to believe there's hope. :P A few good adult relationships... or even some bad ones... might shake you out of this. would you do anything if there wasn't a benefit to it? I don't think so. Then you have to add the fear factor in - it's manifested into our minds in so many ways that we cannot escape it. Why do we brush our teeth? Why do wash our covers? There's lots of things that are directly related to fear. Just because I am argueing from an emotionless tone doesn't mean I actually am this way in person or in reality. I just don't find emotions to have a purpose to this discussion about human characteristics. In social situations however, it is not intelligent to be so, since people respond to emotions better than the lack there of. Also, people don't like being scientifically broken down as if they were a robot... but it is definately possible and that's what I want to do some day. Break someone down into a logical equation, explaining every little part of them. It's why I think this way, I want to be an artificial intelligence developer for games, or anything else that needs AI. Perhaps one day create a replica of a human brain on a machine. I know I'm not smart enough to do so, but for some reason it's something I've always wanted to do and I write down all different aspects and responses to various things because it interests me. Although my charitable nature makes it difficult to ignore somebody in need, I'm going to do my best to disregard any further messages from you on this subject... yeah, yeah. I know, everybody's heard me say this before (possibly to you, but I wouldn't know the content of any of our previous conversations without a search) and knows the usual results, but I've decided to make my 25th year of life a big growth year. I've already broken several deeply ingrained bad habits and dropped twenty five pounds. Let's see if I can willfully ignore somebody now! You're so humble for doing so. I forgive you instantly, because you are the most righteous person I've ever met. I am so glad you've finally decided to take your seat as the right hand of god. This will be my last post to anything of yours as well. I fear for talking to you does not bring out my best character, and does me no benefit once so ever. I fear for you as much as you probably do for me psychologicaly. You are an evil person in my mind, as I probably am in yours. There's a good chance that at your age you won't change, luckly I'm young enough there's still hope. Good luck to you and your future. | |
To the contrary, both you and I have every right to assume who's a jerk or who's good or bad. An assumption is both an opinion and a hypothesis. We all certainly have the right to form an opinion, and we have the responsiblity to form hypotheses, insofar as we have the respsonsibility to think.
It is possible to misuse assumptions... for instance, using them as the ending point of your thought process rather than the foundation.... or making one which contradicts available information and/or which we cannot defend rationally. All of my assumptions thus far have been backed up by the information that was available at the time they were made. Thus, it was not a mistake to make them.
It would be a mistake to fail to make any assumptions on which to base judgement due to incomplete information, for complete information never exists. It would likewise be a mistake to reject new information on the basis that it conflicts with a previous assumption.
As for the board being better administrated... the number of my own posts I've immediately deleted or edited because I reconsidered them and realized they were inappropriate is almost certainly in the triple digits. The number that were so affected by other moderators is in the single digits... and that digit may be perfectly symmetrical. I won't swear to that last part, though. My memory is not the best for specifics.
Anyways, you think it somehow shoots me down if your family background positions you to understand psychological terms? That would only be a factor if I was wantonly throwing them around to try to cow an uneducated person into submission. As I actually sincerely and heartfeltly mean everything that I say here, the fact that you understand the terminology I use is a boon to my purpose rather than against it. Perhaps you failed to make this distinction because as you say, you like to argue just for the sake of arguing.
To touch on one other minor point: people online are people offline. Really. Every body you connect to online is an actual living human being... either that, or the Turing Test needs a serious recalibration.
The difference between how you behave on the internet and how you behave in "real life" is not due to any differences inherent in the people you meet there, but rather, within yourself.
The whole "it's the internet so it doesn't count" line of thinking is just one more example of the lengths of mental gymnastics you'll go through to justify your behavior to me (whom you don't want anything from?)... well, in that you're in good company. It's an exceptionally easy excuse to use, so lots of people use it.
As a learned student of psychology, no doubt you're familiar with the experiment in which the subjects were given buttons they were told were connected to electrodes in the next room that would anonymously shock people at an increasing voltage, and that they were free to push the button as often and as long as they wanted without fear of reprisal? Even if you never read about it in school or heard of it around the dinner table, I'm sure you caught it mentioned in discussions of the situation in Abu Ghraib... anyways, how does this relate to the topic at hand?
Very simply: the same phenomenon is at work any time somebody undergoes a vicious or nasty personality change when they sign into an anonymous, long distance communication. It's not that the people one interacts with are fundamentally different... it's that one's own feeling of accountability has altered.
Looking back over your posts, I'm struck by how... mercenary... you are in describing human relationships. It's all about gain and risk, and particularly tellingly, how much you can get away with. Taking this attitude and applying it to your remarks about the internet... it's really not a pretty picture. If you were less defensive and more self-assured about it, I'd say you were a borderline sociopath... but as it is, you're so touchy about this that I have to believe there's hope. :P A few good adult relationships... or even some bad ones... might shake you out of this.
Although my charitable nature makes it difficult to ignore somebody in need, I'm going to do my best to disregard any further messages from you on this subject... yeah, yeah. I know, everybody's heard me say this before (possibly to you, but I wouldn't know the content of any of our previous conversations without a search) and knows the usual results, but I've decided to make my 25th year of life a big growth year. I've already broken several deeply ingrained bad habits and dropped twenty five pounds. Let's see if I can willfully ignore somebody now!