Mar 8 2006, 2:50 pm
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Ter13
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just one more step towards this:
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_< Holy crap, I was just thinking that a few minutes ago... Though, I was more leaning towards A Clockwork Orange... Mind control to prevent crime... You know. | |
Okay, now, I'm going to say my piece, and if you don't agree, well, I've got to say that you have the right to disagree, but I'm going to say that the United States constitution is actually, kind of sort of ON MY SIDE.
Now, as a soldier, I have no true freedom of speech, I gave that up by enlisting. I can believe what I want to believe, but I cannot actively state my opinions in a manner that would defame my branch of service, government, or leaders. Basically, I chose to give up certain freedoms to defend that. If I were to have a website on which I listed I was both an Airman, and an Aryan, I could be literally given an article 15 and the boot. Now, for middle school children to give up their right of free speech because they are in school? No, that's beyond wrong. These kids didn't sign anything stating that harrassing a student outside of school could get them booted, the district has NO authority to do this. Frankly, I doubt half the staff of this school even know how to use a computer well enough to NOT open up every file in every popup from the internet that says: "Urgent". Basically, I'm going to flat out say this, that the students should all sue the school district. This is a flagrant violation of constitutional rights. There is no getting around it. If they are so worried about a student shooting a kid, why don't they do something about their building security, I mean, it's really not that easy to hide a shotgun if you have proper security. Oh, and while we're at it, did the kid actually THREATEN to harm her? No, he simply asked who would like to. He never expressed a plan, nor did he have access to the shotgun, I'd bet. Not one portion of this was justified. If a kid wants to be an anti-semite, that's his business. yeah, if I were his parent, I'd beat the tar out of him. If he made the comment around me, I'd probably knock a few of his teeth out, and if he made said comment during school hours, then you know what? He would deserve a suspension. But again, it comes back to the fact that he did not. None of these kids even deserved to be talked to about this. This should have never happened. Why doesn't the american education system do what it's supposed to, and teach kids? Every year the standardized test scores go down, and the population gets dumber for the most part, and what is the school system busy doing? It's kicking kids out for using MySpace. Maybe if their staff didn't spend so much time on MySpace going on witch-hunts, then they could actually do their jobs. The american education system is a travesty, and the lack of respect for basic, constitutional rights is apalling. I have never had any respect for middle and high schools, because of things like this. When you get right down to it, people aren't going to get along, no matter where you go. I work with people that I would rather get in a fist fight with than say hello to, but I have to work with them. Kids are kids, and they are going to squabble and they are going to fight, call names, etc. It happens, and it's not the education system's business to even try to solve problems that don't happen on their grounds. Shootings generally aren't the fault of a failing on the education system, but the parents. High school and middle school are supposed to prepare you for life, not wrap you in foam padding and protect you from everything... The education system is not at fault if a kid gets his hands on a gun, it's the fault of the stupid parent that didn't lock it up, or didn't watch their kid, or for that matter, teach them right from wrong. SCREW the education system, and SCREW bad parenting. | |
The school shouldn't have to deal with the situation. If the kid got his hands on a shotgun, whose fault is that? The parents' where were they?
I don't know too many schools that leave shotguns just lying out, so in no way are they responsible when a shooting happens. | |
Wrong, Goku. So long as it happens off of school grounds, outside of school hours, the school has no authority.
I myself, got threatened with expulsion for smoking during school hours, but I was a senior. I was eighteen, and I was on my lunch break. Seniors are allowed to leave during school hours, any time they need to, but skipping class isn't cool. I went off the school grounds to have a cigarette, and even though I had a lunch pass, went to my car to get my cigarettes (Which was parked in the hospital parking lot across the street) They accused me of bring tobacco onto school property, and using it as a minor. I basically, had to threaten to sue before they let me go. I told them that the only reason that the cigarettes were on my person was because the security guard grabbed me and dragged me onto school grounds. I actually threatened to sue for assault, misconduct, and all sorts of things, before they realized I had my bases covered. They even had to walk me out to my car to see where it was indeed parked, off of school grounds. Then, they tried to accuse me of parking illegally, so I went into the hospital with them, and asked if there was a problem with me using their parking lot, and she said that legally, there was nothing wrong with it. I promptly gave my administrator the "I win face", and asked them if that would be all. They then, proceeded to call my parents. Even though I was legally an adult, they continued to hassle me. My mom knew I smoked, and had no problem with it. After calling her, they called my dad. My dad, quite concisely told them to go to hell. He agreed with me, total bullcrap. All in all, they wasted my lunch break, and half an hour of my fifth hour, so I forced them to write me a formal apology, and promise me that it would never happen again. Basically, moral of the story is this: The school likes to think that they can get away with crap like that. The only reason they do, is because nobody fights them on it. I stood up for myself five times from middle school on, and every time I won. Plain and simple, I won. Schools will bend if you don't, otherwise, their need to take rights away from everyone will continue perpetually to grow more bold. | |
Nipped in the bud would imply that it is not the school's responsibility, but the parent's...
And I will continue to tell every last one of you that think that these kids should have had any action taken by the school, that you are wrong. This was all the parents' responsibility. | |
And uh, Shades has proven my argument that schools need to spend less time on MySpace, and more time teaching!
Congratulations! You win... I'll get back to you on that... | |
Times change. Ever heard of a precedent? Just because there is a written law about something, it does not mean they always follow it. I am sure you have heard of the Unwritten Constitution. When I took U.S. History, we learned about many Supreme Court cases in which students were suspended and even expelled from school for doing things off of school grounds and out of school time. The Supreme Court follows the Constitution to its fullest, but remember, it was written so many years ago. Times have changed, and nothing is the same. Some actions have to be taken, and some laws have to be broken in order to give people the proper punishment. It is called a "lesson". They are enforcing their rules so others do not do what these kids did. And yes, it works. Since times have changed, people have to bend the laws of the Constitution a bit to fit our now changes society. As I said before, this goes along with precedents. I think the school was right to suspend these kids.
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GokuDBZ3128 wrote:
Some actions have to be taken, and some laws have to be broken in order to give people the proper punishment. It is called a "lesson". Oy! No need for rehabilitation. Just make 'em pay! With blood! For stealing a $12 CD(or whatever). :P It's called punishment that fits the crime. | |
Ter13 wrote:
Now, for middle school children to give up their right of free speech because they are in school? No, that's beyond wrong. These kids didn't sign anything stating that harrassing a student outside of school could get them booted, the district has NO authority to do this. Just for the record, we actually do have to sign something that says that at the beginning of the year in my school. | |
Ter13 wrote:
Okay, now, I'm going to say my piece, and if you don't agree, well, I've got to say that you have the right to disagree, but I'm going to say that the United States constitution is actually, kind of sort of ON MY SIDE. Yeah, but the constitution is hardly flawless. I mean it's an ancient document from a time when people were only just figuring out that slavery wasn't good. It allows you to go out and buy weapons designed with the sole purpose of killing things (most of the time people). I mean you can buy guns that put the police to shame because you used to have to worry about bears and the King of England. You're also taking it very literally and broadly. It's not like US citizens are allowed to say what ever they want without conciquence. These kids didn't sign anything stating that harrassing a student outside of school could get them booted, the district has NO authority to do this. The suspensions weren't punishments. They were a safety precaution because the school classed this as something along the lines of bullying with extreme potential. I knew a kid in Primary School who was suspended for pretty much stalking a girl. The most serious events occured outside of school however the school could not simply ignore them when deciding how to deal with it. Frankly, I doubt half the staff of this school even know how to use a computer well enough to NOT open up every file in every popup from the internet that says: "Urgent". You're under estimating the intelligence of the average teacher (and person). I don't know any teachers who can't use a computer. Computers aren't new anymore. Most teachers are required to use computers as part of their job (with the ablity to downlaod homework they have to be). It doesn't take a nerd to know how to navigate the internet anymore. It doesn't even take an intelligent person. Oh, and while we're at it, did the kid actually THREATEN to harm her? No, he simply asked who would like to. He never expressed a plan, nor did he have access to the shotgun, I'd bet. Not one portion of this was justified. Because of the nature of MySpace they aren't certian of exactly what happened there. I might add neither are you. They knew that the group was pretty much a celebration of their hatred towards this girl with the potential to get violent. It was also the reason all 20 students were suspended. They had no idea how involved each student was so they had to apply the same action to all of them while they figured it out. it's not the education system's business to even try to solve problems that don't happen on their grounds. Well there's some debate as to whether this happened on school grounds. Obviously the bullying would have started/happened on school grounds, school grounds are probably the only point where the two parties meet and odds are if anything happened it would be either on school grounds or her trip too/from school. No matter how you slice it the school is at the center of this. So this was going on on school grounds even if the MySpace stuff wasn't. The education system is not at fault if a kid gets his hands on a gun, it's the fault of the stupid parent that didn't lock it up, or didn't watch their kid, or for that matter, teach them right from wrong. Do you really think people would see it that way if one of those kids killed, or even just seriously beat that girl and it was brought to light that the school knew about this group? Also that's sort of irrelivent. Kids get their hands on guns all the time. Parents don't lock their weapons up, watch their kids or teach them right from wrong. Sadly that happens all too often. Passing the blame on like that doesn't make anyone any safer. The school would be at fault for not doing their part to ensure the safety of one of their students. They definantly wouldn't be the only people to blame, and shouldn't take the bulk of it. SCREW the education system Just out of interest, are you allowed to say that? | |
Jp wrote:
Lethal injections are somewhat more painless, but they're often prepared incorrectly, and the prisoner still suffers) How would you actually know whether you prepared it correctly? I mean, it's a lethal injection. You don't get to ask the prisoner if they suffered afterwards. | |
Jon88 wrote:
Sure they have their uses for hunting, but those don't matter, because they can hurt people. What are the uses of hunting? I can't really think of anything appart from the cultural significance. Animal population control can be done much better without hunting. | |
My area has a lot of hunters(NE PA). >_>
One of my friends is one, and his dad has a bunch of guns. Wouldn't be hard for him to get one, I would guess. | |
what my parents and ton of others dont know is kids like me and the others that go to my school is that if we ever wanted to get a gun(i am not saying anyone does) it would be very easy.
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They are responsible, however, if they fail to do anything in their power (legal or not) to prevent that kid from bringing that shotgun onto their premisis to harm another...
You seem to be talking strictly legal... Who's to "blame" after the fact... Never, ever base decisions on that... | |
If you had two acquaintances, one of which hated the other, and might have the capability or intent to do harm to the other (nothing specific; even if you just suspected it), would you allow them both to come over to your house?
Even if there was some weird law that said they had a right to come to your house? I don't think you would... That would just be stupid, irresponsible, and/or sadistic (as in, I want to see a conflict) So, why should this school let it happen? Why should they allow two, potentially violently opposed individuals into their "house" at the same time? It would be stupid, irresponsible, and/or sadistic... Now, let's put this into another hypothetical: What would you all say if the school had never kicked the kids out, and they did come to the school and cause harm to the other student? What if it came out that they knew ahead of time that this was a possibility, yet did nothing about it (aside from filling in the parents, which may or may not have done any good, and likely wouldn't have)? You'd fault them for it... Believe me... | |