I'm not even going to bother reading all this. I seriously doubt many people here actualy know much about immigration, what it actualy means. Immigration is quite a dangerous subject to talk about, views range from simply allowing people to live where they like, to ecconomic immigration, to quotas, to preventing immigration, to throwing every non-[enter ethnic/national group] out of the country.
A common arguement that is that illegal immigrants somehow manage to spunge off the state, when the fact their illegal means they not only do they have less rights, they are unable to make use of services. Thats not to say that they dont use up government resources, but then everyone does, whether their immigrant or not, legal or not. Immigration tends to provide a workforce, if the industry is not one thats popular by the "natives" then it shouldnt be much of a problem. Immigrants do make a difference for the economy, and given the US's current state of slowly toppling over, it'd be very silly to upset this balance. Of course, if americans actualy think they can find some of their own people to do menial jobs like cleaning, working at minimum wage, food stores, and other quite boring or horrible jobs go for it.
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no, but it will be *you* that pays for their housing and food and medical services. speaking as someone who knows the system up close and personal, putting illegal immigrants into prison (or anyone not convicted of something akin to murder) is giving them a better deal than their current fate. " Not only that, but it'd be a big financial drain on the government, where outside they'd actualy be making money for the economy, not using it. Edit, whoops, you mentioned that, well dur. Lol. I need sleep really. I've noticed that most americans here have been against illegal immigration, while people of other nationalities, or living abroad actualy have more sense of the subject, and realise its not a black and white thing. Sorry, its a horrible generalisation but its looking to be true. Given that a lot of US citizens can barely point out where countries are in the world, or reconise flags, means theres a big lack of geography development across the US. Immigration tends to be covered in geography, prehaps if the US had more focus on the outside world rather than being slightly isolationist, then maybe more people from there would have a greater understanding. Again, this is not meant to be anti-american, a simple statement of facts, one of the US's bad points is it likes itself too much and isn't quite as open to the rest of the world. This is true not only in the Iran issue (its allies have pretty much been forced into backing it up) but also on things like the environment, which the US has just suddenly come to realise might be effected by carbon emitions, something the rest of the world knew at least 10 years ago. | |
Vito Stolidus wrote:
Trust me. Even there, it's a miniscule minority. Don't fall prey to stereotyping. LOL EVERY1 IS LIBERAL + NEVER STEREOTYPE PS. EVERY1 IS LIBERAL | |
Scoobert wrote:
This, in turn, lowers our standard of living, which is one thing that Americans have always been proud of, but has been going downhill for a while now. I dunno. Standard of living in most Western countries has been going up kinda continously. Just as in example- in England (and ok- I got this 'fact' off a TV programme, but hey) people are 3 times better off than they were 50 years ago; It'd be natural to assume a similar process was happening in America which is very alike England in many areas. If you can post some figures up or something though, I'd be happy to accept it. | |
Live in America for a while, you will see it everyday. I don't need some fancy chart to see the world around me. My personal standard of living has went up, but most people I know, across the country, have been going down.
The price of housing is increasing, but wages are not. The price of food is increasing, but wages are not. The price of almost everything is increasing, but wages are not. See the problem? This is causing a loss in standard of living. When people are being forced to live with 3 kids in a 2 bedroom apartment, you know that life is getting hard. When good paying jobs are being outsourced or are requiring higher education(Which many people, like my family, cannot afford), you know that the standard of living is going down. Money is constantly leaving the country, with very little returning. Our country is broke, in the red by a lot. 5.15USD is the current minimum wage standard in the US, but a family with 2 parents and 1 child have to have both parents working for at least $8 an hour for 40 hours a week to be able to survive. That is assuming they can find someone to watch the kid while they work, because day-care can cost a large portion of their pay. Do you see the problem here? | |
Scoobert wrote:
Do you see the problem here? Yep, very clearly. Capitalism is finally screwing all you lot over. It seems clear to me now that America's problems can be solved by Socialism. [insert catchphrase here] | |
"The price of housing is increasing, but wages are not. The price of food is increasing, but wages are not. The price of almost everything is increasing, but wages are not. See the problem? This is causing a loss in standard of living. When people are being forced to live with 3 kids in a 2 bedroom apartment, you know that life is getting hard. When good paying jobs are being outsourced or are requiring higher education(Which many people, like my family, cannot afford), you know that the standard of living is going down. Money is constantly leaving the country, with very little returning. Our country is broke, in the red by a lot."
You seem to act like this is something thats only happening in America. Europes been suffering from that for awhile. Its not however something related to illegal immigrants. Face it, China and India are becoming the top dogs, its just natural for western nations to not be doing quite as well. Edit: We've had it good, now its starting to collapse a little for us, but its not the end of the world, we just wont be quite as comftable as we were before. | |
No, I understand it is a global problem, but I was just pointing out to Elation that the world is not perfect, and everything is not on the up. I don't blame illegal immigrants alone (Although they are part of the problem, removing them completely is not the solution), there are a lot of factors that come into play, too many to count actually.
I also understand that it is not the end of the world, but it doesn't change the fact that things are getting worse in America, not better (When it comes to standard of living), and that is not a good thing. “You seem to act like this is something thats only happening in America.” You seem to act like just because I am American I cannot possibly image the world outside of my country. This argument is not about other countries, it is about America, I did not mention any other countries because they where not relevant to my conversation. Believe it or not, not all Americans are idiots. | |
Dictionary.com definition:
Illegl (il·le·gal) - adj. (1) Prohibited by law. (2) Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. (3) Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation. n. An illegal immigrant. Italix added for emphasis. What happens when an American Citizen, say, is an "undocumented houseguest" (law terms: breaking and entering, tresspassing on private property) in someone else's house? They get in trouble. It's happening on a larger scale. Doesn't the occupant in a house that is subject to breaking and entering havew a right to defend themselves and chase the invaders out? It is the same with the tresspassers on our soverign land. Americans will fill the gap. about 4% of all Americans are unemployed. I'm sure a bare minimum of 2% will get a job in construction, landscaping, or another such blue-collar job. Everyone here knows someone of the group who was ousted from jobs in construction and manual labor. You might even be one. Before the current trickling invasion, teens and college students did those jobs. Can they not do them again? --Vito | |
I'd rather pay a little now than an undefined amount later. If we need more money, there's something known as "earmarks" we can cut.
--Vito | |
I can't tell if that was sarcasm... I assure you. Socailism/Communism will not help anyone's situation.
Wuld you like to live in Cuba? Who would? How about North Korea? No takers? Didn't think so. -_Vito | |
No, as an illegal immigrant you can still send your children to school, here all you need is a proof of residency.
This is an example of wasting government money. I agree with you, but I don't think we should grant illegal aliens amnesty. My parents waited in line to come here for 2 years, it then took them seven years to get citizenship, illegals should have to go through the same process as everyone if they want citizenship. | |
Vito Stolidus wrote:
Americans will fill the gap. about 4% of all Americans are unemployed. Is that all? I thought the Bush-bashers were whining and claiming that unemployment has been rising. I thought it had been higher than that before his administration. Does anyone know where to find official estimates on that? | |
Pretty big generalizations there. I don't think they all add up either.
Americans are not closed to everyone else. As has been said time and time again, people can move here legally just fine. I know plenty of people who moved here from other countries legally. They can do that just fine, and that's all we're asking people to do. Other nations haven't "pretty much been forced to back it up" on the Iran issue as you call it. This is similar to the Iraq issue, except that we positively know that Iran has the potential to become a nuclear power and that the Iranian leaders want this and are striving for it. Nobody wants that to happen (except Iran and its allies, of course), which is why we are being backed on this one as we should be. The US did not just figure out carbon emissions are bad where everyone else knew it for a long time. | |
Vito Stolidus wrote:
Who says we have to pay them? Is there a law? There is a law saying you must pay taxes. Well, at least there is here in Australia. | |
and your taxes will pay for the boat, the trip, and the detention. you still lose.
best bet is to go through and check who is illegal or not, make them legal if possible. or just do what many governments want now: a universal ID system.
then just tax everyone a set fee based on their yearly income.