Fraud by BYOND Member

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Jun 13 2006, 8:05 am
In response to Alathon
This is kinda what I was thinking. The microsoft example would be a retail business, which the products are produced first, then mass shipped to multiple people. In this case, however, the work is done for one person and was paid in advance.

I think there would be two proper things to do in this matter:

1. Suggest a refund of 3/4 or 2/3, depending on effort value, determained by the service provider.
2. Suggest a time extension to the customer at no extra cost. Redo the work(Which is normally way faster the doing it the first time), and take the time loss as a learning experience on why to keep backups.

Either one of those would have worked great, but it strongly depends on the customer/service provider as to which is best. In this case, I think option 2 is the best. A refund would not be recommended because the fault falls completely on Ben for not backing up. As such, he should take a loss(time is a loss in service based business), but it should not cost the client(UD) anything because there is no fault to him, except maybe paying first, which is never a good idea on the internet. I personally would have seens the results first, paid, and then awaited the source, especially with such a large ammount of money.
Jun 13 2006, 8:13 am
In response to Ben G
Ben G wrote:
I wasn't talking to you.

An online forum in public access does not presume to allow you to 'restrict' your threads to certain people; People will reply when they feel they have something to say.

If you were unable to meet the demands specified, you should've said so; If you were unable to produce the specified result, it seems pretty obvious to me to refund the money. Arguing semantics over a pretty obvious example given doesn't shed any positive light over the situation. Facts:

You gained $200
UnknownDuelist has recieved nothing and lost $200

The best course of action at the creation of this thread might've been to take a hint and return the money, say your goodbyes and have that be it- Posting in this manner does nothing but further solidify the fact that what happened wasn't justified at all.

This thread is a fairly solid lesson on one thing, though. If you're going to pay someone in a situation like this, make sure you get your moneys worth before handing over any cash.
Jun 13 2006, 8:16 am
In response to Alathon
Alathon wrote:
An online forum in public access does not presume to allow you to 'restrict' your threads to certain people; People will reply when they feel they have something to say.

That doesn't change the fact that I wasn't talking to him.

The best course of action at the creation of this thread might've been to take a hint and return the money, say your goodbyes and have that be it-

It almost feels like I offered to refund some of the money already. However, I don't think refunding 50% of the money AND programming the largest part of his game is quite fair to me. I'm terribly sorry if you disagree.

Posting in this manner does nothing but further solidify the fact that what happened wasn't justified at all.

Okay. I see what you're saying. Me being upset about this turn of events makes it even more unjustified. In most matters, Alathon, I respect you, but I honestly don't care about your view on the issue. You're not involved.
Jun 13 2006, 8:23 am
I guess I'm just a bad person. I appreciate this community giving me the benefit of the doubt. I received exactly $190.38 from UnknownDuelist and was genuinely working on returning the money as met upon in an agreement. I've already started sending the money back.

Thanks for being so judgemental, guys. Thanks for trying to understand the situation before throwing in your expert advice and appraisals.

I'm sick of this community. When he has the rest of his money, I'm gone.
Jun 13 2006, 9:26 am
In response to Kalajin
Kalajin wrote:
Well, at least an acknowledgement of some other parts of posts would have been nice..

I did not reply to that stuff because you talked about something I did want to talk about. I was talking about the confrontation with nothing more but proofless conclusions, and not about what you dragged to the subject.

O-matic
Jun 13 2006, 11:15 am
In response to Ben G
while i disagree in how this was handled (both this thread and the transaction it discusses), what may be the best solution (as mentioned already) is to just keep the cash, re-do the work (which might be easier and faster next time around anyway), and move on to another project (BYOND or otherwise). everyone wins, and people would not continue to whine about this thread - which i've already had to get involved in by cutting out some inappropriate behavior.

Jun 13 2006, 11:54 am
In response to digitalmouse
digitalmouse wrote:
which i've already had to get involved in by cutting out some inappropriate behavior.

And we thank you for doing so.

Oh, right, hit post a little too early...

Probably that was the best way it could have been handled, but I guess it was destined to not work out that way. Too bad, too; I could have used some help coding, since my life is a little hectic right now as well.
Jun 13 2006, 2:47 pm
In response to O-matic
This is not a flame or anything to you O-matic,

but,

You are not a Board Moderator.

Theres nothing wrong with telling people when they've done something on a board wrong, but you do it like its your duty to BYOND or something.

By the way, why aren't you on BYOND (as in games) anymore? ^-^
Jun 14 2006, 1:55 am
I actually feel bad for you after reading this. I'm not going to make any judgement against Ben, but nevertheless, that does suck.
Jun 14 2006, 3:11 am
In response to Ben G
Ben G wrote:
Thanks for being so judgemental, guys. Thanks for trying to understand the situation before throwing in your expert advice and appraisals.

I did take a while to read all the replies, consider the situation, et cetera- I'm pretty sure several others who replied did the same.

Your statement is rather ironic, I think. Apparently opinions aren't thought-out if they don't agree with your view of things. They also aren't important and need to be disallowed if you don't consider them part of the discussion.

I'm completely against blacklisting threads in general because they only tend to convey one side of the story, and would've probably posted something akin to that were it not for the vehement defense you threw up that I felt needed commenting. Mistake.

Regardless, this thread does no good really; It hasn't resulted in a positive result for either Ben G or UnknownDuelist.
Jun 14 2006, 3:26 am
In response to Ben G
Huh? I've got to throw a BS flag on this one.

How did "the community" do anything to you? A few posters criticized your handling of the situation and weighed in with opinions. That is what happens in public forums, after all. Alot of people *didn't* comment. Some, like myself, did not because 1) the facts weren't entirely clear and 2) it's something the parties need to work out between themselves anyway. Plus, it's only 200 bucks. Not exactly a huge deal.

Reading your posts, it seems like you are on the defensive and looking to attribute negative traits to the "community" because you don't want people to tell you that they disagree with you. You instead seem to believe that if they would just look at it from "your view" they would agree. Unfortunately, this isn't accurate; someone may very well understand your view and still disagree- see LummoxJR's posting.

Look, I know the situation got kinda ugly. That happens when their aren't clear expectations set in advance and good communication in a project. But to simply have a fit and stomp away because some people don't agree with your actions seems a bit extreme.

If you want my "expert" opinion, next time you get a project, get all the expectations and agreements worked out in advance in writing so there are no questions. Provide for things like deadlines and performance reports. Be flexible and realize misunderstandings occur. If a dispute arises, don't drag it to a public forum unless you want others weighing in. If the other guy does, kindly post that it is not a matter that public input can resolve and take it to private messages (I've never seen a customer relations dispute in a forum end particularly well!).

Good luck, and for what it's worth, it seems like you are trying to be a decent guy by returning the payments, despite your work on the project. Hopefully future projects turn out better for you.
Jun 14 2006, 7:24 am
In response to Jmurph
Jmurph wrote:
How did "the community" do anything to you? A few posters criticized your handling of the situation and weighed in with opinions. That is what happens in public forums, after all. Alot of people *didn't* comment. Some, like myself, did not because 1) the facts weren't entirely clear and 2) it's something the parties need to work out between themselves anyway. Plus, it's only 200 bucks. Not exactly a huge deal.

The community didn't do anything to me. I just really am not happy with what it's turned in to recently. This isn't a one time event, it's just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Reading your posts, it seems like you are on the defensive and looking to attribute negative traits to the "community" because you don't want people to tell you that they disagree with you. You instead seem to believe that if they would just look at it from "your view" they would agree. Unfortunately, this isn't accurate; someone may very well understand your view and still disagree- see LummoxJR's posting.

I'm absolutely fine with people disagreeing with me. As I stated, I can very easily see where UnknownDuelist is coming from. My problem is the willingness of third parties who are in no way involved to start attacking me. That does absolutely nothing for the situation and serves only to irritate me.

Look, I know the situation got kinda ugly. That happens when their aren't clear expectations set in advance and good communication in a project. But to simply have a fit and stomp away because some people don't agree with your actions seems a bit extreme.

I'm not really doing that, Jmurph. I've had myself isolated from the community for quite a while now. I used to be a pretty active developer, but I'm pretty much confined to my chat program now. This went from an excellent game making site to a subpar drama making site.

If you want my "expert" opinion, next time you get a project, get all the expectations and agreements worked out in advance in writing so there are no questions. Provide for things like deadlines and performance reports. Be flexible and realize misunderstandings occur. If a dispute arises, don't drag it to a public forum unless you want others weighing in. If the other guy does, kindly post that it is not a matter that public input can resolve and take it to private messages (I've never seen a customer relations dispute in a forum end particularly well!).

I agree with everything mentioned here, and for the record, requested it was not brought to public discussion. Obviously I'm taking steps to resolve it on my own.

Good luck, and for what it's worth, it seems like you are trying to be a decent guy by returning the payments, despite your work on the project. Hopefully future projects turn out better for you.

Thanks.
Jun 14 2006, 10:10 am
In response to Ben G
Ben G wrote:
It almost feels like I offered to refund some of the money already. However, I don't think refunding 50% of the money AND programming the largest part of his game is quite fair to me. I'm terribly sorry if you disagree.

It's really not. The only right thing to do here is the full refund. If he kept changing his design specs, you could have sent him the code you'd done anyway just so he'd have it on file. That way at least in the event he pulled out completely, you'd have every justification for keeping his money.

In this case your hard drive crash. That truly sucks, and it's just insult to injury that it ruins everything you spent your time on, but the bottom line is he got nothing out of the deal. At least with incremental updates he'd have had what he asked for the week before, even if the next week he wanted something totally different.

You took the money, so you took on the responsibility of delivering code. That you lost the code is unfortunate, but it does not absolve you of that responsibility.

Lummox JR
Jun 14 2006, 10:12 am
In response to Ben G
people cried, people laughed, people learned. it's time to move on.

join us next time on BYOND tv, when Lummox JR says 'no put usr in src, ugh!'


goodnight, Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are...


[thread to be closed]
Jun 14 2006, 10:13 am
In response to digitalmouse
The thread isn't closed, FYI

edit: you're tricky
Jun 14 2006, 10:15 am
In response to Ben G
actually Lummox just posted as i wrote that. giving you a chance to respond if you like. it will get closed eventually, as there appears to be everything said that needs to be said at this point. anything more may produce flamage.
Jun 14 2006, 10:16 am
In response to digitalmouse
digitalmouse wrote:
actually Lummox just posted as i wrote that. giving you a chance to respond if you like. it will get closed eventually, as there appears to be everything said that needs to be said at this point. anything more may produce flamage.

All right. I'll respond to it in a bit. I'm kind of busy.

Hey, also, if you'd like to trim off some more of the extraneous BS, that'd be swell.
Jun 14 2006, 10:45 am
Id just like to throw something in here as a suggestion to people in the future.

When you find someone who wants to work for you, for money, I sugget you work out a payment plan for them.

Kunark, Hell Ramen and Sniper Joe all worked on a project for me, and each payday for me, they would be paid basied on what they gave me.

I mean, that is only fair, as you have to work before you get paid in real life, so it only makes sense to do so on BYOND as well.
Jun 15 2006, 9:10 pm
People are wack... and I would say.. why would you pay him if he didnt give you anything yet? I'd guess it's best to make him give you the code then pay if its what's expected..
Jun 16 2006, 5:56 am
In response to VcentG
That would just flip to another problem of people convincing a programmer to work on a project, receive the code, and claim it's not what he wanted and refuse to pay. :/
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