Upgrade? More like a Downgrade.

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Aug 10 2007, 8:52 pm
I do understand your concerns here, since I've had my own share of annoyances when upgrading software. AOL 9.0 for example was an appalling disaster, taking all the faults of the versions after 5.0 and adding new ones. Updating Internet Explorer has always been a minefield too.

Karnlor wrote:
This whole forcing of upgrade from older to newer versions is just outrageous. Not only do they shred apart and destroy all the easy and functional attributes of BYOND interface since v.341, they force you to deal with the unorganized, difficult and annoying version of Dream Seeker by forcing you to update.

341 was the last stable version of BYOND 3.0, and it still had problems. During development of 3.5 a bug was found that was severe enough to warrant removing the 341 version from the download page altogether, because it could be used to compromise systems. Maintaining separate branches of the code even at that point would have been misguided at best, error-prone at worst.

The only major change between BYOND 3.0 and 3.5, though, was the separate pager. The only major downside there was that it became a little more difficult to log into games with multiple keys.

Sure this may be biased, but with good reason. I see no clear why i should be forced to ditch the more comfortable and simple interface of the older versions to be discomforted by this new blob of an interface.

If they're really going to force people to use the new version. you would think theres an optional download with the same old versions like 341 when the all you needed was in 1 window- but with the improved code and utilities found in 4.0, which are the only good things about it; the new capabilites.

Honestly I don't see how you think that would be feasible. The window itself can change radically in BYOND 4.0, allowing a lot more flexibility in games; BYOND 3.0 had to assume a certain rigid layout and allowed only limited deviation. A game designed for BYOND 4.0 could never ever work in 3.0 or 3.5 even if the old clients were allowed to still connect.

And as far as separating DS from the pager goes, it was ultimately necessary. It was not possible to advance the protocols any further and get out of some obvious problems without splitting them up; their coexistence was a relic of older days, a marriage of convenience only.

Thats all, i just wanted to vent- since they'll probably never make Dream Seeker comfortably playable again, now that the old versions aren't even allowed to play anymore.

I'm still puzzled that you regard this as a forced upgrade for the sake of a forced upgrade. Indeed you can't play newer games on an older client, but that's because you literally can't play them on an older client. Had we never made the change that said "your BYOND version is out of date", any attempt to connect would lead to error messages at both ends, with your client failing to understand stuff like skins and the server failing to receive correct responses from the client. Some of the new features could have been carried over, but there is simply no way to reconcile the old client with more freeform game design, let alone better pager-hub-game communication.

Edit- All in all, this is just going to end up turning the once large gap seperating enjoyment and dread to a small boundry, easily to be swayed in either which way.

I get that switching to an unfamiliar interface is distasteful, because I'm a master of resistance to change. Still, the alternative is total stagnation, and BYOND would die entirely because there'd be very little way to ever expand its capabilities further or support better games. BYOND 4.0 was conceived because of a great many longstanding user requests to remove those limitations. Yet removing them couldn't be done without also obsoleting the clients that force them to exist.

Lummox JR
Aug 10 2007, 9:04 pm
In response to Lummox JR
Lummox JR wrote:
I'm still puzzled that you regard this as a forced upgrade for the sake of a forced upgrade. Indeed you can't play newer games on an older client, but that's because you literally can't play them on an older client.

I suspect that the "forced upgrade" is more over the issue that_any_ game hosted on a 4.0 server-- even an old 3.5 game-- requires a 4.0 client. So, he has a justified argument that, by releasing the beta to the masses, we have effectively closed off a lot of existing games to 3.5 users.

You may wonder why we did it this way, so I'll explain. One of the major changes to 4.0 was the icon format, which has gone from an 8-bit palette to 32-bit RGBA. All icons in 4.0 servers use this new format internally, including dynamic icons. As such, a 3.5 game hosted on a 4.0 server may have some data (dynamic icons) that is incompatible with 3.5 clients. This is not trivial to correct-- and while we could do it with some effort, I consider it counter to our ultimate goal of getting users on 4.0. At the moment-- with major bugs still in 4.0-- the situation isn't ideal, but that will soon pass.
Aug 10 2007, 9:53 pm
In response to Tom
You guys need to get Dan back in here!
He's the ONLY one I believe that can turn BYOND around at this point, I'm not saying were heading in the wrong direction, and I'm not doubting your programming skills, but I really think you guys are simply making hacks to the original core, It's bound to explode in a lot of bugs later on down the road.

(I say this, because you've said it before, Dan's the only one who really understands his own code.)

[EDIT: Is it simply because Dan does not want to come back, or that you havn't been able to track him down? Have you kept in contact?]
Aug 10 2007, 10:03 pm
In response to Flame Sage
Flame Sage wrote:
You guys need to get Dan back in here!
He's the ONLY one I believe that can turn BYOND around at this point, I'm not saying were heading in the wrong direction, and I'm not doubting your programming skills, but I really think you guys are simply making hacks to the original core, It's bound to explode in a lot of bugs later on down the road.

If I was the lead programmer of a project and someone said that to me, I'd be highly offended.


(I say this, because you've said it before, Dan's the only one who really understands his own code.)

[EDIT: Is it simply because Dan does not want to come back, or that you havn't been able to track him down? Have you kept in contact?]

The man has a family to raise. Wife and kids to look after. He works his ass off to provide for them. He doesn't need to provide for this community as well. He started the project and it evolved into what it is today, be thankful.
Aug 10 2007, 10:04 pm
In response to Tiberath
Tiberath wrote:
Flame Sage wrote:
You guys need to get Dan back in here!
He's the ONLY one I believe that can turn BYOND around at this point, I'm not saying were heading in the wrong direction, and I'm not doubting your programming skills, but I really think you guys are simply making hacks to the original core, It's bound to explode in a lot of bugs later on down the road.

If I was the lead programmer of a project and someone said that to me, I'd be highly offended.


(I say this, because you've said it before, Dan's the only one who really understands his own code.)

[EDIT: Is it simply because Dan does not want to come back, or that you havn't been able to track him down? Have you kept in contact?]

The man has a family to raise. Wife and kids to look after. He works his ass off to provide for them. He doesn't need to provide for this community as well. He started the project and it evolved into what it is today, be thankful.

I am thankful. VERY thankful for BYOND.
I'm just saying, thieve said before, they haven't been able to add everything they have wanted to, because it would deal with modifying code only Dan understands.
It just seems like there "adding" on things, not integrating them.
Aug 10 2007, 10:12 pm
In response to Flame Sage
From what I can gather, Dan's code has a uniqueness about it which only he understands.

Using a non-existent example. Imagine you were reading over someone elses code. Except the difference is, this someone else has their own preference to naming variables. You or I are probably going to name our 'strength' variable "str" or "strength". This person however, names it: "physicalability". And instead of Dexterity he names it "lineofsightability". The variables have some actual meaning, but unless you have an original idea of what they were for, they're still confusing.

Now also take into account, he uses the Danist style of code:
if(condition) {
    result
}


And finally, this guy doesn't like to use comments, and so, he doesn't.

Then, you're given this code that's stuffed together as much as possible, uncommented with variables of confusing names. In DM, that's not so much of a big deal. You read the code, and it's an understanding.

Now, relay that same thing into C++. Where you add a whole new array of really annoying characteristics. For instance, a pointer which is named "pointme". Unless you bend backwards through lots, and lots of code files. You will have no idea what that pointer is going to do.

And that is Dan's code. Or so I've come to believe. Uniquely written by Dan, for Dan.

--

FYI: Lummox JR is "The New Dan".
Aug 10 2007, 10:16 pm
In response to Flame Sage
Flame Sage wrote:
You guys need to get Dan back in here!
He's the ONLY one I believe that can turn BYOND around at this point, I'm not saying were heading in the wrong direction, and I'm not doubting your programming skills, but I really think you guys are simply making hacks to the original core, It's bound to explode in a lot of bugs later on down the road.

These recent changes are not "hacks" in the least, and have nothing to do with Dan or his code. Without him, our main limitation is improving on the compiler. Some of the changes for which people think Dan could be the savior-- like client-side processing and non-tile-based maps-- are just pipedreams even if he were to return. They'd require a rewrite of the basic backbone, which would be a massive effort no matter who was on board.
Aug 10 2007, 10:26 pm
In response to Tiberath
This sounds disturbingly like my code
Aug 10 2007, 11:38 pm
In response to Tiberath
Tiberath wrote:
From what I can gather, Dan's code has a uniqueness about it which only he understands.

I understand Dan-code. I'm just not advanced enough with C++ to do any good or actually know what I'm reading. His non-public DM is the same way, I can read it just fine. (When he makes things readable for the public he usually breaks it.)
Aug 11 2007, 2:44 am
In response to Polantaris
It's just a background skin I made in photoshop. pretty simple really.
Aug 11 2007, 2:56 am (Edited on Aug 11 2007, 3:03 am)
In response to Tom
Basically there are a few things wrong with it. The way you have the map elongated always leaves a giant area of black and it just looks unappealing. A squared map with the same setup of the 3.4-3.5 versions would provide much more of a classic feel, and despite your feelings to the old layout it was actually a really nice setup for the majority of us.

So I think the map area is the biggest problem, and if there was any way of allowing us to change the style of the main output box with the default skin in-game would be nice as well, I guarantee that the majority of the players have no idea how to edit the default skin, let-alone get to the option that allows it.

Like Lummox, many people aren't a big fan of change. The closest you can get to the default layout of 3.4-3.5, the more comfortable your players will be.

--Ken

Edit: Also if you could add some sort of "Edit Skin" button on the default layout, that should make it a little easier for some players as well.
Aug 11 2007, 4:04 am
In response to Theodis
You took the words right out of my mouth. I really can't see what he is complaining about. Why would you expect to play a game compiled in 4.0 on any version built for a version below?
Aug 11 2007, 4:54 am (Edited on Aug 11 2007, 5:05 am)
In response to Polantaris
Am I really one of the few who set the stat panels to the right of the map by default on 3.5?
It always seemed much more convenient, and I guess thats one of the reasons I found the change as easy as I did. Granted, I still wish some of the 3.5 features were back, but meh.

But still, shame on you BYOND! Making me upgrade my system to one with many more features and customization and better support for developers and the like. Granted, you've caused me to practically restart productions on Sabachthani, but thats of my own need for the best game possible rather than being forced to do so =/
Aug 11 2007, 4:56 am
In response to Foomer
The grass is always greener on the other side, but once you get to the other side it tastes like crap due to all the chemical fertilization and whatnot. Why you would be eating the grass to begin with is a mystery to me however.
Aug 11 2007, 6:07 am
In response to Tiberath
Heh, that sounds a lot like Jeff Vogel's Blades of Exile source code.

However, I'm much more in fear of Lummox's 4k challenge code.
Aug 11 2007, 6:29 am
It almost sound like the new pager argument that people had (becuase they needed to be a member yo use it).

Try to understand, before long, any developer with half a brain will rewrite their game with one of the 4.0 releases (personally I see the next 4.0 beta being very stable, and having the rest of the crucial options in it, which were left out/ not even thought about in this version).

Now the Byond staff say alot, that in the past the interface couldn't really be customixed, is this true,no entirely of course not. However it might as well been impossible, the customized code you needed to come up with is so super hard,and confusing, it would drive you nuts, just to think of how it could be done.

On top of that, the new interface saves you from needing to wasts potentially thousands of lines of code on the interface. Although stuff like the grid's,button,and exc were able to customize in the older versions, unless I am mistaking, things like tab/statpanel arrangement was never able to be placed where ever you want, also the Skins are a nice touch.

Getting a game started is faster then ever now, now that you don't need to worry about coding in interface edits, you could concentrate on coding the actual game, and without that messy code, we can make the game alot bigger then before. Things like importing images for buttons take about 2 seconds, and no code, among a million other great things about the interface(but that was a good example). In short, the interface is probally the single greatest improvement ever in Byond. The amount of things you can do with the interface is endless.

Also as I siad, any game developer with half a brain will switch to 4.0 before long anyway, and for the non developer, it shouldn't even matter to them if they need to switch to play games, there is little to no change on the player side.

PS. "THANK YOU BYOND" , the new interface editor takes alot of stress off of creating a new game , true it is missing an option or two, as well as a few tweaks I'm sure, but I'm sure those things will be added/fixed. This is clearly the right dirrection.

For years the "myth" of 4.0 has been on my mind, as well as countless others, but I didn't think it would be this godly.
Aug 11 2007, 6:43 am
In response to Jamesburrow
Jamesburrow wrote:
Am I really one of the few who set the stat panels to the right of the map by default on 3.5?
It always seemed much more convenient, and I guess thats one of the reasons I found the change as easy as I did. Granted, I still wish some of the 3.5 features were back, but meh.

But still, shame on you BYOND! Making me upgrade my system to one with many more features and customization and better support for developers and the like. Granted, you've caused me to practically restart productions on Sabachthani, but thats of my own need for the best game possible rather than being forced to do so =/

Yea lol, I don't know why people don't see this as for the best. Yea, alot of people will have to rewrite their games, but in doing so will allow them to improve the game later on, far more then you ever were able to.

PS. In a year every one will have 4.0, and they will be all thanking Byond for these changes. We should take screen shots of these forums, and show them later, and say "And you all thought this was a bad thing lol" .
Aug 11 2007, 6:45 am
In response to Zoltor
4.0 Is by far the best update, since it makes games that are programmed correctly run even smoother. The skin editor is what everyone so far is just complaining about. Which yes its hard but once you play around with it, and with some trail and error(Thanks Lummox Jr for the turtorials) is really easy.

To step back from here would be bad, since alot of us been waiting for 4.0 to come out.
Aug 11 2007, 6:47 am
In response to Foomer
Foomer wrote:
So everybody whines and complains because BYOND can't do what they want with the interface, and when the new interface features become available they whine and complain because they can't use their old limited interface which they were "comfortable" with.

People are impossible to please.


Lol, yea, I find this funny as hell, what hipocrits.
Aug 11 2007, 6:53 am
In response to Signaki Corp
Signaki Corp wrote:
4.0 Is by far the best update, since it makes games that are programmed correctly run even smoother. The skin editor is what everyone so far is just complaining about. Which yes its hard but once you play around with it, and with some trail and error(Thanks Lummox Jr for the turtorials) is really easy.

To step back from here would be bad, since alot of us been waiting for 4.0 to come out.

Yea, from first sight it looks confusing(and Byond using diff terminology for the things in the interface editor doesn't help the matter either) , but after 30-45 minutes, I got the hang of it pretty well.

The only thing that makes it hard, is that It's "NEW" . Before long it will become second nature, and all these nay sayers will say "what the hell were we talking about, this is great" .
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