Aug 26 2007, 9:20 pm
In response to Hiead
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Masterdan
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you cant seriously argue that things arent worth putting roadblocks in front of because they are still passable. What if microsoft came to the same conclusion, were too lazy to prevent people from breaking into peoples machines and then every exploit that was found never was patched and the operating system would fall into anarchy. Its a developers obligation to prevent bad things from happening, being lazy and just writing off fixing problems because you fear more will come to exist eventually anyway is silly, as it stands now theres absolutely no real roadblocks to extracting an rsc, if it was an inconvenient mess of icons that could be reconstructed, it would still be 100x better than it is now! because at least then it would take hours and hours to put the icons together and morons like darkwizard wouldnt bother spending the time doing that just to piss me off, rippers are lazy, and if you make the job of ripping hard then it wont happen. They may even opt to do the stuff themselves, gasp.
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Masterdan wrote:
you cant seriously argue that things arent worth putting roadblocks in front of because they are still passable. I'm not joking, if that's what you mean... What if microsoft came to the same conclusion, were too lazy to prevent people from breaking into peoples machines and then every exploit that was found never was patched and the operating system would fall into anarchy. That's different. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Its a developers obligation to prevent bad things from happening No, it's a developer's obligation to make sure that the right things happen. It's a government's obligation to prevent bad things from happening. if it was an inconvenient mess of icons that could be reconstructed, it would still be 100x better than it is now! because at least then it would take hours and hours to put the icons together How do you figure? If it took hours and hours to put together, then what will poor old DreamSeeker do? It needs to somehow piece the information together and come up with the individual resources instantly, lest everyone start complaining about it being too slow. Essentially, anyone looking to piece the information back together has all of the means that DreamSeeker has at its disposal; if the only way to reconstruct the data takes hours and hours, then DreamSeeker would take just as long. If DreamSeeker could do it in seconds (or less), so could anyone that knows how. and morons like darkwizard wouldnt bother spending the time doing that just to piss me off Aside from you sounding a bit paranoid there, I would like for you to take into account just how much time he has already spent "just to piss [you] off." If he's dedicated so much time already, be it in resource extraction, spam, flaming, or other trolldom, what makes you think he'll be against spending large amounts off time to do so again? rippers are lazy, and if you make the job of ripping hard then it wont happen. There are varying degrees of them. There are the ones that are not knowledgeable and lazy and just want to put something out. Then there are the ones that, as you put it above, "just want to piss [x] off," and know how to do it. In fact, to that audience, making the job harder often makes it even more interesting and more enjoyable. They may even opt to do the stuff themselves, gasp. Make it hard for a gangster to get guns, and he'll become a productive member of society, no? The way I see it: no. Hiead | |
Masterdan wrote:
And to jtgibson, you guys need to talk to a lawyer, seriously.. living in fear to the point of severly hampering this community sucks, i want the utopia damn it. 1) You apparently completely missed the fact that the utopia would end in a very harsh way as soon as a litigation suit was had, and believe you me, that's an inevitability. 2) We aren't living in fear and we don't need to hire a lawyer for something that we already know to be true. If you moderate things, you set a precedent to continue to moderate them. If you fail to moderate after having set that precedent, you can be held responsible for failure to moderate. If you establish in the beginning a hands-off policy, on the other hand, the only thing a company can do is request that BYOND punish the offenders on a case-by-case basis, rather than punish BYOND itself for sanctioning the activity or failing to prevent unsanctioned activity. Sorry about the wall of text. (That's dripping with irony.) 3) If you're going to respond to me, respond to my post instead of responding to someone else's and mentioning me in passing. It's confusing as heck. =P | |
sorry, im just annoyed by this legal situation. Cant you make some TOS that protects byond's ass? i mean really.. you should be able to moderate more without worrying about all that, i think even if you did moderate and somebody got mad at you for all the copyrighted games (which i mean they are really not competitive games, and games that did exist that got legal action against them were simply a cease and desist im sure youd be okay. Look at Bid for power (if your not familiar look it up on wikipedia, incredibly popular dragonball mod, got shut down by the people who made dragonball, but it posed a direct threat to dragonball as a whole because it was more fun than the games released at the time, also it simply changed the characters skins and the name and it re-released itself without the legal issue)
Sorry if im being rude, kind of bad about getting offensive when i argue my point. | |
i get your point, but even tom understands the issue here and wants to put some systems in place to prevent it, i was giving examples of the things you could do to prevent RSC extraction, i know they arent perfect and dont expect them to be used specifically, but there are things that the coders who were smart enough to make byond could do to prevent this from happening! And they do need to do it and i believe they will.
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Masterdan wrote:
sorry, im just annoyed by this legal situation. Cant you make some TOS that protects byond's ass? Well, if you want... No fan games allowed, this would cripple the community, yes. But it DOES seem like the only way that the BYOND Staff can step in. | |
and therefore BYOND likely won't 'step in' as much as you would like, since it is 'Build Your Own Net Dream' - whether original or not. what if someone bypasses the hub altogether and hosts their ripped game without BYOND? little can be done to prevent it. BYOND can't police the internet.
BYOND can't be really held responsible just because it provides a means for developing and playing games. that would be like making Ford responsible for some nitwit crashing a Ford Escort into a shop window, and then driving off with whatever was taken. it's logically (and probably legally) absurd. | |
if by cripple the community you mean cause 95% of the members to quit, then yes. Keep in mind the RPG guild is largly Dragonwarrior, final fantasy and harry potter, and then the anime guild is completely copywritten. so probably 95% of the community would leave.
At any rate, my points remain valid. | |
I find it humorous that the only place graphics ripping really occurs is in the Anime section. Did it ever occur to you that maybe if you drew something original, that people couldn't just throw into their clone game, they wouldn't steal your icons in the first place? I've never seen any icon leaks on games like Seika, Mystic Journey, or anything of that sort.
The things you're suggesting are ridiculous. What's wrong if people give rank benefits? Obviously, the people like the game to begin with, and they probably would've ranked it to begin with. I honestly don't see a problem with developers rewarding players for that. "Hey, you like my game, awesome! Here's some extra stats because it makes me glad when people enjoy my game." People got in a big fuss when Goditz' game was number 1. To be completely honest, other than LRS, I haven't seen another game that deserved that spot. That game had over 75 players constantly. I don't see a problem with resource extractors, and if some sort of special "password" is allowed on the developers end, I know that we won't be using it, as it's not necessary. Come up with an original game with original sprites based on your own characters. RSC extractors have helped fix more problems than they've caused. I've extracted resourced for several developers after they've lost their resources in a crash or some other similar event. It's not source code, but it's definitely a help, and knowing that you still have something left from your creation is a definite motivator. I'd much rather see the staff, and I mean everyone who can, devote their efforts to fixing and featuring 4.0, not working on some ultimately useless protection so people don't rip your lame anime icons. Grow up. | |
Airjoe wrote:
Grow up. I wholeheartedly agree with your stance. There's been too much tears coming from developers who are afraid of hosts/rippers/PETA enthusiasts. If you game is good enough, people can't get away with ripping the icons. Even if they get their hands on the source-code they wouldn't be able to get away with it. The problem is and always has been with rips: making a DBZ game is one thing, but downloading a source-code and claiming it as your own is another. Without the authors consent, don't take it! -- Data | |
I never understood why people were so bothered about having graphics stolen from their games. There is only two possible situations that could ever occur from someone taking resources from your game.
1. They're not your resources, meaning you or someone on your team didn't make them. In which case you cannot claim ownership of said resources, nor do you have any right to complain if someone steals them and uses them in their own game. And chances are they can go to some website and freely download them anyway. 2. They are your original resources, meaning you or someone on your team did make them. In which case, if someone does steal them you can issue them with a legal cease and disist, which is basically a threat telling them to stop what they are doing. If they choose to ignore the threat then you are entitled to take legal action against them, in otherwords, you're allowed to sue them. You can also do the same to anyone who uses any of your original resources too. (But if I'm not mistaken, you have to at least have some confirmable proof that you actually did make the resources) In the first case, shut up complaining, they're not technically doing anything wrong. In the second case... Hahaha, if it was me I might actually want someone to steal my original resources and to ignore a cease and desist just so I can sue them and make some easy money! But seriously, in either of those situations you don't really have anything to worry or complain about... So why bother? Though, I'm not sure whether this could apply to original resources based off of something else, but in such a case, rather that making a sprite of Goku, make a sprite of Guko (they look very, very, very similar, but one is not a character that is protected by copyright laws!). | |
Hiead wrote:
Masterdan wrote: That's really the heart of this matter. Masterdan came under attack from several trolls, who invested serious time in their efforts. (I consider the people behind Propaganda to be among them, though they weren't the worst offenders.) The .rsc extractor is nothing more than a MacGuffin to these guys. They can claim it's only being spread for the sake of the community, that they're not really attacking Masterdan specifically, etc. Yet they've outright spammed the link everywhere and they used it as a threat. I'm fairly unconcerned about the extractor because the problem it represents is nothing new, and trying to fight such programs will effectively kick off an arms race. But as Tom has said, and I agree, some basic protections on the .rsc would not go amiss, and at some point we should look into adding them. It is not, however, a catch-all, and people can still find clever ways of reverse-engineering your icons; music and wavs might be touchier. The real problem, though, is not the extractor but the people using it as a club. This is just their latest attack in a string of others. rippers are lazy, and if you make the job of ripping hard then it wont happen. Not to mention, this doesn't do anything to stop our #1 category of rips, which is code source theft. Giving your source out to the wrong person will render any .rsc protection totally moot. Ripping someone's icons only is far, far less common. Lummox JR | |
Airjoe wrote:
People got in a big fuss when Goditz' game was number 1. To be completely honest, other than LRS, I haven't seen another game that deserved that spot. That game had over 75 players constantly. Yes, as much as it was used as proof that the ratings system was "broken", to the BYOND Staff it served as proof that the system was working. It's worth noting though that BYOND Anime does not include NBotLS among their featured games because it's a rip. I believe its ratings manipulation also disqualifies it. Unofficial guilds, though, are free to pursue their own policy on these issues. Lummox JR | |
Lummox JR wrote:
Yes, as much as it was used as proof that the ratings system was "broken", to the BYOND Staff it served as proof that the system was working. Wasn't that Elation's all famed DBZrelegr8 though? :p He removed it from the hub for that reason though: it served its purpose and it was time for it to leave. It became rank number 1 and stayed that way for awhile. | |
Couldn't you just combine the Source code, with the rsc, that way there is enough binary to stop alot of people from making a really good extractor? Everyone says its very hard to make a source extractor so put the rsc inside there, so it would make it harder for them to crack it.
Those are my two cents. | |
but it could still be cracked eventually by those determined to do it for whatever reason. as Lummox mentions, this would kick off a huge waste of time in an 'arms race' that could be better spent improving BYOND in more important areas.
what i find amusing is that the the largest criers of 'foul' over the whole .rsc issue are those probably violating some form of copyright in developing anime-based fangames in the first place. i find no record of anyone have documented proof they have permission from the owners to develop a fangame and use the copyrighted likenesses of Naruto characters, DBZ characters, Bleach Characters, Hogwarts characters, etc. going 'waaa! someone stole my Naruto icons!' when you likely have no legal right to the likenesses of those icons in the first place is rather silly. in several cases, the icons in question are modified/tweaked versions of icons ripped from other games. you people don't have much of a leg to stand on. on the other hand, truely original material not appearing anywhere else can be legally protected by it's creator. you'd have proper legal recourse to go after the thieves directly without involving BYOND. | |
I understand what you mean.
But by your logic about not giving rights to Naruto,DBZ,Bleach. Then remove them. :P | |
world/rsc_password is set to the password for the .rsc file. When you clean compile, it will use the rsc_password value that is currently set.
Additionally for this, procs like fcopy_rsc(), fdel_rsc(), create_rsc() and so on can be made. -- Data | |
