Looking over the crafting systems in my various little games, I think I've given the player a hell of a lot to create. Alchemy, Blacksmithing, even different types of barricades. But here comes the real question...
Who in the nine actually sits down, for possibly hours at a time, to create their own items?
Which, of course, leads to other questions.
First of which, can the players make anything good?
Secondly, why make it when you can buy it?
Well, anyone can tell you that if there's nothing decent that can be made by spending your time and gold, running around to different shops for that 1 metal spring, carefully hunting for hours to obtain that special enemy drop...then hell no. Not worth it.
What does it take to be "worth it"? Is it cheaper? Does it give extra effects? Can it be modified after creation? Or maybe it's unavailable through other means, such as vendors or quests.
What does it take to be worth it, BYONDites? Let's hear your opinion on the above, if you please.
ID:152218
 Sep 12 2007, 7:59 am
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Dice1989 wrote:
I'd go on assumtion and say that your Blacksmithing has levels, the greater the level, the better items you can create. I'd also assume that these items will add "n" points to my statistics. You'd be correct in that assumption, although availability is not determined by your skill. Rate of success is determined by your skill level. Anyone can attempt something, although you may be highly likely to fail. I can't see it taking hours to create this item, I doubt I would go through the hassle if it did. However if it take hours to get my Blacksmithing level up enough to make this item, then yes, I have no problem sitting down for hours to raise the level. Item creation itself would not take hours, but finding the items and how to combine them correctly (or smith them, etc.) may. The application of common sense and a little curiosity will reveal most item's creation methods. If I can get the gold together and buy a better piece of Armour at the shops faster than it would take to make this item, then no, I wouldn't bother with it. This really is relying on what your character desires as far as armor goes. Some specialized armor (Rogue's Armor, for example) is not sold in stores. The Rogue's armor has about half the protection you can afford, but the lack of metal plates and softened shoes make it much more useful for your sneaky bastage. My views on needing certain materials to create an item slightly vary. If I'm creating something not too useful such as "Copper Braces" for example, I don't expect the materials I need to be too hard to find (Although I don't expect to find them everywhere I turn either). However if I'm creating something such as "Golden Dragon Armour", then yes I would expect the materials I needed to be pretty hard to come accross, and I wouldn't mind going on the hunt to find them. Well put, and always what I've thought. Vendors can supply many of the common parts required for -item craft skill-, making it much less aggravating to look for that ONE spring after finding the Black Dragon Scale. However, not everything can just be bought, although the majority of common items' ingredients can be bought (and cheaply at that). | |
The crafting system in my game works out pretty simple.
From the start you can make all items, but the chances of you making a good item is close to none. Firstly you get all the items you need, find a place to make your item and pick what you want to make (different item types have different difficulties, 1 for a dagger, 10 for an gigantic sword with an elaborate design). After that you've given a list of avaliable materials needed to make the weapon, stuff like bronze, iron, steel and so on, each one further adds to the difficulty of the weapon (a bronze dagger has 2 difficulty, an adamantite dagger had 8 difficulty), obviously you actually need the materials avaliable (dagger takes 2 bars for example). Different materials effect the item in different ways, such as it's basic attribute (attack for weapons), how easy it is to break, how heavy it is and how valuable it is. Then you can throw magic gems into the mix, each one with a variety of effects, ranging from basic stat increases, imbuing elemental attributes to more special, specific effects such as making a weapon good at dragon slaying. You can add as many gems as you want, but each gem further increases the items difficulty to make. After you've selected everything you attempt to make the weapon. If I've decided to make a long sword using mithril and thrown in 2 magic gems that give it bonus to fire damage I'd make a Mithril Long Sword of Fire. What makes it worth while? Well, the standard Long Sword you buy is worth 50 gold, has 20 attack, weighs 20lb and has a durability of 100. (This is roughly the equivelent of making an Iron Long Sword) The Mithril Long Sword of Fire however is worth 200 gold, has 40 attack +10 fire, weighs 15lb and has a durability of 200. In other words, it is more or less twice as good as a standard long sword you can buy from any old NPC. So yeah, though making your own equipment isn't needed as you can buy it, making it will generally result in a much better weapon than you could buy from an NPC. That and a system like this is simply to implament and with it you can take 10 different weapons and turn them into over 1000. Which isn't a bad thing I'd say. Common magic items however are somewhat different. They are considered rare and usually powerful in the game. The most basic magic item is a magic scroll, you can buy basic magic scrolls and find others from enemies/treasure. But making them is usually much cheaper to do. You basically need a blank scroll (2g each), a quill and some ink (10g in total and they are reuseable) and you need to know how to cast the spell. After that you scribe the scroll (and lose Mp equal to the cost of casting the spell). Then you can do whatever with the scroll, use it when you run out of Mp or trade it with another player (selling it to a NPC will make no profit). (The process for rods is similar, you just need a blank rod and have to sacrifice more Mp, but in return you get a rod which can cast that spell a lot more times before becoming useless) In the end the question for magic items is, do you want to spend 100 gold buying all those scrolls, or make them yourself (or trade some scrolls you can make that someone else cannot for the scrolls you want) and spend something like 12 gold? Quiet different systems for making equipment and scrolls. But they are both useful and both work in the game. | |
Well, since most RPGs are just glorified calculators, most players won't bother crafting if you get better gear as drops or from shops. If craft gear is the best, players won't bother with loot drops or shops, unless they are new or poor.
From a GD perspective, crafting should be as fun as anything else. Clicking craft chair 40 times is not fun. Customizing parts to make custom items can be. Minigames can also add depth. For example, maybe blacksmithing requires you to hit the metal with a hammer. But you have to also time adding more fuel and air. This heats the metal. The goal is to strike when orange hot. Let it get too cool and you make slower progress and could crack the metal when hammering. Too hot, and your blows will warp the oversoft metal, or worse, the whole thing just liquefies out, leaving a dangerous mess. Fortunately, higher skill means temperature is more stable and you are less likely to flub the item if you hit at the wrong time (You select HAMMER METAL: "Hrm, maybe not- the metal seems too hot/cold."). You could have similar games with cooking and alchemy. | |
In that case it is a system I would gladly use in a game to create some items, also Jmurph made an excellent point about adding some life to creating items.
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Thanks for your reply, before I begin...
Crafted equipment is more specialized, one could say. A swordsman can visit a blacksmith, buy a suit of Steel Plate Mail armor, and a new claymore, and be perfectly fine. However, a rogue would not do the same. The dagger he purchases from the blacksmith may lack the reservoir he requires to hold his poisons. The armor that the blacksmith sells is too heavy, and too loud. And honestly... who is going to sell armor named "Thieves Armor"? This is where crafting comes in. Armor, weapons, and other items may not be available in shops, and some characters will need those items (not literally, but I've always seen not getting my chest ripped open a good thing, same goes for armor). Also, players can create devices and nifty combat-helpers with the crafting system. Find the correct parts, make a cheap iron bomb to take out several enemies, rather than taking them one-for-one. The largest purpose of the crafting system (other than to add another level of depth to the game)is to allow the player to have exactly what he wants (as in customized to his liking). I've found (as I'm sure most people do)that games that let you customize and define your character, from your eye color, to your history, to what color your belt is, are always more enjoyable. | |
I'd buy items from a shop, or gather drops, if that was my only option at the time. If I have the skill and resources to create my own items, I'd much rather spend my time doing that. Even if my items are no different than shop or drop items, I'd still feel more accomplished if I created them myself. There's something to be said for self-sufficient adventuring.
~X | |
Here's an old rant I did on IRC one time that expresses my exact thoughts on the matter:
[6:48:12pm] <Spuzzum> They have to make non-combat characters useful by nerfing combat characters. [6:49:13pm] <Spuzzum> Generally this is because most MMORPGs spend the most time perfecting the combat system, yet expect every non-combat skill in the game to have equal following. [6:49:46pm] <Spuzzum> No one generally gets the idea that you need to make crafting a sword every bit as tactical as a battle against a lich. [6:50:10pm] <Spuzzum> Of course, that's nigh impossible to come up with a good idea for. And that's why most MMORPGs fail. [6:52:42pm] <Spuzzum> A weaponsmithing system would kick ass if you could, for instance, specify the specific blade curve, the edge type, and whatnot for weapons. Heavy-duty combat characters would want broad edges, prowess-based combat characters would want slender edges. [6:53:21pm] <Spuzzum> Everyone always argues that "that's too much detail!" But if that's too much detail, then why can you select from over fifty different weapons for combat? [6:54:01pm] <Scotty> most blacksmith type players that i've seen usually have a choice for what type of weapon they want to make, wether it'd be a rapier or a battle axe [6:54:55pm] <Spuzzum> Well, yes, they have a choice, but it usually means little to them -- there's nothing really involved in the process of choosing that's entertaining. [6:55:33pm] <Spuzzum> It's why people in Ultima Online chop down trees and then make piles of heavy crossbows to improve their Bowyer skill, for instance. =) [6:56:09pm] <Spuzzum> The weapons are just numbers to them, since there's no personality involved. [6:57:32pm] <Scotty> it's pretty much impossible to get that level of detail [6:58:41pm] <Spuzzum> They seem to do a fine job with the combat systems. =) [7:00:41pm] <Scotty> the best you can probably do to ad personality to blacksmithing is allow them to use other things when they make a weapon, either different metal (gold, silver instead of iron) or embed gems/runes that add special properties [7:01:17pm] <Spuzzum> That's the best they *do*, but I doubt that's the best they *can* do by a long shot. [7:02:29pm] <Spuzzum> Unless I'm the best game designer in the world, which I oh-so-strongly doubt. | |
World of Warcraft had a crafting system. People could only take up two trade skills at a time, and it took time to develop.
Some people like me choose to take up mining and skinning, purely collecting the nessescary resources for trade skills. I sell these on the auction house and get a good amount of money for it. Others, like my friend, take up Tailoring and Mining. One is a trade skill which allows you to make clothes, the other is a gathering skill which allows you to gather raw materials. He has tailoring, because he is a Warlock and Warlocks can only use cloth armor in World of Warcraft. If you buy it from the auction house it is really expensive. So he saves money by making his own armor. No one has all the time in the world to master all trade skills, Blizzard realized that and put a 2 trade skill limitation on players. That created an almost nessescary need for one another. | |
Generally I ignore crafting stuff unless it serves a practical purpose. Ie, building my own training dummies which allows me to get my weapon skills up.
My biggest problem is that it's an optional boost most of the time, so I don't even start crafting until I've started getting bored with the main game. That means I have to complete a bunch of early skill levels where I produce stuff that's useless to me before I can make stuff that suits my level. Usually that means going back to the starting area to get the low level materials and working my way back up to my current point. Usually it takes even longer than the first time you went through the area (even though you can now kill anything in one hit). By the time I get to the point where my skill matches up with my level I'm sick of crafting, so I go out and do other things instead of maintaining it. So ten levels later I have to go back and do ten levels worth of craft skill levelling in one hit. If you were to make it so that the items you craft are practical beyond just 'better armour, better ammo' I'd be interested in crafting and buying crafted items. Also I'd rather that instead of making better versions of the same item you made new items when you went up in skill. Ie, I can make a chair early on, I can make a table later on. The new ability to make tables doesn't negate the use of chairs (it actually compliments them). My level doesn't negate how useful those items are either. Sure, making better versions of the same items as your skill grows is good, but I find that after the first ten levels that's all you're doing. | |
...wow. I really....really like that...
With a little work, that could be a seriously detailed crafting system. Er...are you using that? :D? If not, I'd like to write that out and perhaps add it in. | |
I'm the same, although I craft anything possible, I enjoy crafting systems. Though... very few are well done. Thus...
This thread. | |
Pakbaum wrote:
...wow. I really....really like that... Even though I am using it, I can't possibly see why that should deter you from using it. Anything I post directly on a forum, I post for one of two reasons: 1) Because I think more games should use it, or 2) Because I don't want people to think they were the first one who thought up of a clever idea when I had thought of it first. ;-) | |
Well, I was only asking to be polite. Some people would either:
1) Say something like "zomg, he stoled dat!1one" 2) Be slightly irritated if they saw a system similar to theirs after trying to just give an idea (although I am going to change it up, I wouldn't want the exact same craft system >.>) | |
One thing you don't see very often and I quite enjoy is when blacksmiths can modify equipment rather than just make it from scratch. Bring in your clanky heavy armour and have the blacksmith modify it to be a little more quite. Maybe melt down your enchanted 'sword of the sneak' and add it to the armour to give it some of it's magical qualities.
Making it so that certain key materials posses qualities could be good. So instead of having a design for 'stealth steel helmet' you just have 'helmet'. You can then select to make it out of steel, which would set up it's base stats. Then add ground up 'darkness stones' (a rather easy to farm item) to increase it's agility. Likewise you could add sunshine stones to make it defend better against magic attacks. The more stones you add the more of that stat it gains (with a limit on how many stones can be added set in the design of the item, the material may also effect which stones and how many can be added). | |
I good start would be to look at a very sucsessful system and ask Why?
looking at DAOC's system it had 3 hooks and rewards. 1. it was a great way to make money, with the addition of a hell of a lot of money sinks in the game. (salvaging materials from useless pieces) - secondary hook, a clever crafter could make money by training 2. A good crafting system is rooted in a good equipment/character system, in DAOC your equipment effected so many different factors the chance of finding a great set was nearly impossible! only a group of crafters could put together a set tailored to an individuals needs, or you could shop around for weeks, but that needs a lot of money,.. see 1. So also on top of a good equipment system,.. No cookie cutter characters, you have to allow for flexibility in players! I cant stand chars with a "best way" to play!, this allows for flexibly crafting too, and increases variety of needs. - bad eg. fighters could specialise in big hits, lots of hits, hits with effects, or never missing, or thier blend. 3. Actualy tailoring a well balanced set was an art, you had to consider what resistances Vs what you encounter, the players base stats, specialties etc. No set was the same and some people had more than 1 set for different applications, the difference between the best players and the rest was often how well managed crafted bonuses were. A good crafter in DAOC could turn a decent player into an Elite,.. for a hefty price. The drawbacks of course is having a game become equipment dependant,.. :( So you need a depth to the customisation you can achieve and a need for it! As with all systems this complex you have to start small and gently add to it as a player advances, in DAOC this was achieved by gradualy increasing the number of bonuses and variety of equipment. There also is another factor which is a big one, "Bragability" or as Bruce Lee would say,.. "The art of Bragging without Bragging" - thats a whole different topic | |
"Making it so that certain key materials posses qualities could be good." - That gave me an interesting idea...
What if certain materials had special properties? The obvious differences in materials could be the standard changes: -Weight -Durability -Value etc. But, certain materials could have -unique- (not necessarily helpful mind you!) properties. Examples: Mithril - Stats similar to Steel. Special property = Any items created from it always weigh 1/4 of the original amount. Silver - Slightly lower than Steel stats. Special property = Any weapon created from Silver deals many times more damage to lycanthropes, as well as unholy type creatures. Also, Silver items have a very high enchant-ability rating. Those are only examples of course, but how does that sound? | |
Pakbaum wrote:
Well, I was only asking to be polite. Some people would either: I was mostly joking with that response, but I didn't want to overuse smileys. ;-) But anyway, yeah, anything I post on these forums is public domain, whether it's in idea form or code form, unless I explicitly say otherwise in the same post. | |
Here's the best way to do it! My opinion of course.
Don't have vendors that aren't player oriented! Have vendors that players go to to sell their own gear; i.e. a blacksmith vendor, an alchemy vendor, etc... all the gear sold on them is player made! When an item is sold, it's deposited in an account with their unique key and when they log in they go to that vendor to collect their rewards! Allow players to leave some sort of mark on the item so they get credit for their creations. Also, make skill constantly a factor. If a miner who's been mining awhile goes out to find rare ore, he has a better chance than someone who just started (this keeps people from making lots of mining characters and having them spam mining at multiple locations). Make magic items found in the world either not as good as crafted OR make them destructable (durability perhaps?) to keep the trade system being profitable. Don't make people have to run around a lot. Having a location far away for resources is OKAY as long as you make sure that everything is located in a general area, so that there's no running back and forth between multiple resource sites. This makes it easier for the player. So for instance, instead of having to get a feather from a phoenix, a walnut from a tree and black ore from the great mountain... have it just be black ore from the great mountain. Sure maybe it's a 15 minute walk away from town, but at least you don't have to hunt for it, and you know there's nothing else you need. Simple is better. | |
I'd go on assumtion and say that your Blacksmithing has levels, the greater the level, the better items you can create. I'd also assume that these items will add "n" points to my statistics.
I can't see it taking hours to create this item, I doubt I would go through the hassle if it did. However if it take hours to get my Blacksmithing level up enough to make this item, then yes, I have no problem sitting down for hours to raise the level.
If I can get the gold together and buy a better piece of Armour at the shops faster than it would take to make this item, then no, I wouldn't bother with it.
My views on needing certain materials to create an item slightly vary. If I'm creating something not too useful such as "Copper Braces" for example, I don't expect the materials I need to be too hard to find (Although I don't expect to find them everywhere I turn either). However if I'm creating something such as "Golden Dragon Armour", then yes I would expect the materials I needed to be pretty hard to come accross, and I wouldn't mind going on the hunt to find them. You just have to find a balance in that.