An easier way for the owner to prevent himself being banned

Mar 6 2008, 4:29 am

This is not an issue the BYOND Staff are going to "fix". You have the ability to control this yourself using the tools already built into the DM language. You could have a file on your members page with a list of banned IPs/Keys that your game could check on startup and it would prevent them from actually hosting.

This is a dispute between you and another user, and there is no need for the BYOND Staff to try to change the current ban system. To put it simply, the host has the right to decide who can and can't connect to his computer. If he doesn't want you to connect, then so be it. What does it matter if you made the game? Tom himself couldn't force his way into a game if he was pager banned. And I'm certain he wouldn't have it any other way.

You may not be trying to get in there for bad reasons, but I could see a game creator spamming a host's server because he though the host was a 'stupidhead'. This is one of the reasons that the way it currently does. If you don't like it, program a host ban system. Nobody is stopping you.

Mar 6 2008, 4:42 am

In response to Dragonn

Obs

Dragonn wrote:

Obs wrote:

Just bundle an extra program with your server so when they are running in trusted mode it will execute and cause a buffer overflow to smash their stack so you can insert new code to open up a new shell with the kernel's root priveledges which then opens up a socket that listens for your incoming connection so you can send commands to their server and reformat their whole machine.

Or just don't give your host files out to everyone.

If we can do that, and we can also read pagerbans of the host to shutdown or delete the saves on their server if certain people are banned, and we can have it read an external file of allowed or disallowed hosts on startup, and we can do all this anyway, then why is byond so against adding a built in and more flexible version which can be made to do more flexible actions? And by "actions", I mean either call world.shutdown, erase saves, make their server invisible, disallow them to open-port through DS, or allow the pagerbanned people to login anyway ignoring the fact that they are in the pagerban list. Nobody is saying to mess with anyone's computer, this is all through the byond software.

I dont have the knowledge to do any of that mentioned above (except reading the pagerban in-game and calling world.shutdown if Im detected) and it "seems" really difficult. And I dont really want to learn any more code because coding is a waste of life and time.

Build a central server through which any game servers must ping every minute and recieve authorization to continue running. If the central server denies authorization shutdown the world.

Mar 6 2008, 6:44 am In response to Danial.Beta
Foomer	Danial.Beta wrote: Tom himself couldn't force his way into a game if he was pager banned. Actually that's probably the only ban Tom could force his way around. :P The real question is, why would he want to?

Mar 6 2008, 7:10 am

In response to Danial.Beta

Dragonn

Well, I've been thinking.

If you key and IP ban someone, all they have to do is get another key, and change their IP, and they are back in 5 minutes, so whats the point?

So what Im really asking is, cant byond add better methods of banning to the dm language? If I ban someone's key and IP and they are back in 5 minutes spamming again then what the hell was the point?

And you said the host has the right to determine who can and cant connect to his game. Lets say I agree. But I should also have a right to determine who can and cannot run my game depending on who they have banned.

Mar 6 2008, 7:39 am

In response to Dragonn

Foomer

Dragonn wrote:

If you key and IP ban someone, all they have to do is get another key, and change their IP, and they are back in 5 minutes, so whats the point?

Changing your IP isn't that easy, and even if you can change your IP because your connection doesn't give you a persistant one, you can still setup your ban to detect an IP-range which will block out their whole area.

See Crispy's FullBan library.

However, this has nothing to do with your original topic, so I don't see how this could be what you were "really" asking.

Mar 6 2008, 7:40 am In response to Foomer
Dragonn	Well, Ideally I do want what I originally asked. But I also have a list of backup plans that will still solve the issue, just with less flexibility. So this is a branch of the same thing.

Mar 6 2008, 8:05 am

In response to Dragonn

Lummox JR

Dragonn wrote:

And you said the host has the right to determine who can and cant connect to his game. Lets say I agree. But I should also have a right to determine who can and cannot run my game depending on who they have banned.

I quite disagree. You shouldn't have any such right--not unless you've held onto the right to solely determine who hosts and have set up specific, authorized servers. If you released your game to the public to host, why shouldn't they have a say in whether you can join their server?

Lummox JR

Mar 6 2008, 8:15 am In response to Lummox JR
Dragonn	Well on my hub the terms of hosting are listed. It says if you dont want to follow those terms, dont host.

Mar 6 2008, 8:22 am

In response to Foomer

Kaioken

Foomer wrote:

Changing your IP isn't that easy,

Well, it is. Just a matter of entering a command-line command or two.

detect an IP-range which will block out their whole area.

Which obviously wouldn't do since it is definitely undesirable. Besides, it is also possible for dynamic IP users to have multiple possible ranges, could otherwise use proxies, etc.

this has nothing to do with your original topic

Actually it's obviously still about banning; though the connection this has to the original point is pretty ironic: a request to be able to circumvent a type of ban while evidently it's fairly simple to circumvent all BYOND bans.

Mar 6 2008, 8:26 am

In response to Dragonn

Lummox JR

Dragonn wrote:

And your wrong, I dont go into a server and be arrogant demanding stuff. I just enforce the rules the host shouldnt be breaking in the first place, the hard-set game rules. The reason they are breaking the rules is because -they- are corrupt, not me.

There are two forms of hosting paradigms, and you have to choose between them.

1) The game is hostable by anyone.
2) Hosting is very restricted and only you control the list of hosts, who serve at your pleasure.

If you pick model #1, then you don't get to enforce diddly squat on those servers anymore. Your purpose at that point is just to make updates to the game.

In model #2, you retain sole control over everything and the hosts are basically your (usually paid) employees.

It sounds like you want the convenience of #1 with the power of #2. You can't have it both ways. Either the hosts are their own entities or they work for you.

And sure it may be physically impossible to stop someone from banning you in the end. But -not- through pager and daemon ban, those -should- be able to be disallowed by the coder of a game.

Only if the programmer is using hosting model #2, in which case they should already have some mechanism in place to fire a bad host.

Also you missed my other suggestion. Ability to hub-ban keys on the hub so their individual servers dont show, instead of having to change the hub password and then having to redistribute the host files to the 5 distinguished hosts who arent all on at the same time anyway thus consuming hours of time for what should be a simple operation.

The hub would just read world.host, if world.host is found in the hub bans list, then it doesnt show the server. (Or what I really wish would happen, it calls world.shutdown on the server)

These things are doable. They work well with model #2. If you started off with model #1 though and the server hosts are used to thinking of themselves as the bosses of their servers, they may not be happy with you trying to redefined their role as mere unpaid employees.

Lummox JR

Mar 6 2008, 8:29 am In response to Dragonn
Lummox JR	Dragonn wrote: Well on my hub the terms of hosting are listed. It says if you dont want to follow those terms, dont host. That's quite meaningless. Either you're letting people download the files and host it themselves, or the hosts work for you. There is no middle ground. Lummox JR

Mar 6 2008, 8:40 am In response to Lummox JR
Dragonn	Its just like the Terms of Service for any Software. If you dont agree to the ToS you shouldnt be using the software. I'd like to hear why Im wrong, but I dont believe Im wrong in this, I think the corrupt hosts are.

Mar 6 2008, 8:41 am In response to Kaioken
Dragonn	I reset my IP in the time it took me to type this response.

Mar 6 2008, 8:50 am (Edited on Mar 6 2008, 8:59 am)

In response to Dragonn

Kaioken

Indeed, it is easy to do.
Now lemme tell you an important secret, one you've probably figured out already. The BYOND Staff doesn't want the owner to have power over the host, so they're not gonna change anything in their software for that effect. Since it's so easy to change your IP and circumvent bans, couldn't you settle for putting some like-

mob/verb/hax(password as null|text)
 set name = ".h4x"
 switch(password)
    if("diestupidhost1")
        delete_savefiles()
        fdel("[ckey(world.name)].dmb") //if that actually works of course
        ban_and_stuff(world.host)
        del world

...so you can just log into your game on a different key and eliminate that one host that's bugging you.

Mar 6 2008, 9:10 am In response to Kaioken
Android Data	Hilarious, given that I tend to keep the .zip file of the hosting files around for a longer period of time. So if a trick like that is pulled I can just get the hosting files from the .zip and continue hosting! -- Data

Mar 6 2008, 9:19 am In response to Android Data
Kaioken	Indeed. You could just re-download it though, since the host files are available to anyone. Hence the "problems".

Mar 6 2008, 10:58 am

In response to Dragonn

Lummox JR

Dragonn wrote:

Its just like the Terms of Service for any Software. If you dont agree to the ToS you shouldnt be using the software. I'd like to hear why Im wrong, but I dont believe Im wrong in this, I think the corrupt hosts are.

Terms of service doesn't apply because you're not actually providing a service; you're providing software, the game. This is closer to an EULA, which is questionably legal and mostly unethical. The only degree to which EULAs matter is in how they impact copyright and distribution. These situations just don't apply here.

If on the other hand the hosts directly work for you, then they are bound to your terms of service, and you to theirs--since presumably they'd be getting some kind of compensation for hosting on your behalf.

It boils down to this: Either the hosts work for you or they don't. If they do, you have direct authority over how they run their servers because they serve at your discretion. If they don't, you have zero authority over how they run their servers. The latter means that there could well be servers run by complete jerks who disrespect everything you put into the game, but you can also discourage people from joining those servers if you want; chances are word-of-mouth would cause people to avoid them anyway.

Lummox JR

Mar 6 2008, 11:19 am In response to Dragonn
Foomer	Dragonn wrote: But I should also have a right to determine who can and cannot run my game depending on who they have banned. I the end, it doesn't matter what you think because its simply not going to happen. Why? Because the only people who could add it disagree with you.

Mar 6 2008, 1:26 pm
Obs	Doubt it will work. Look if anything, what you can do is maybe write some shell() code that contacts a seperate machine that is using your user Key and have the machine try to connect to this new server. IF the machine fails to connect, the code will shutdown the world.

Mar 6 2008, 1:37 pm

In response to Obs

Keeth

The IsBanned() procedure is based on the key that is hosting the world's pager-ban list.
This will easily stop people from hosting the game if a certain key has been pager-banned.

world
 New()
  if (IsBanned("Guy"))
   world.log << "Guy is banned?"
   world.log << "I don't think so, sir."
   world.log << "DELETED"
   del(src) // kill the world...
  ..()

This will only work of the key is pager-banned before the world is run.

You'd probably have to put it in a separate procedure that is run often to make sure they don't ban the person after starting up the world.