Advertising BYOND - The problem of stagnant growth

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Sep 24 2008, 5:52 am
Upon reading the thread "BYOND Wikipedia Article Up For Deletion" ( [link] ) by Naokohiro the following postings stunned me:

Tom wrote ( [link] ):
(...)
We're ready, we're ready! Please, do what you can to get more users!

Geldonyetich wrote ( [link] ):
(...) Considering this, it seems remarkable how it has managed to escape attention.

Tom wrote ( [link] ):
if anyone has (...) ideas, speak up!


Now, this might be a remarkable enough issue to grant it an own topic. If it helps to come up with some ideas that work out, I'm sure BYOND would gladly welcome new users.
Having that said, I'd like to go first and throw in some (most likely dumb and crazy) ideas I came up with:

  • Poker / Board Games playable in DS and a webbrowser

    Now, there seems to be a vast interrest in games such as Poker (Texas Hold 'Em), Sudoku, Scrabble, Chess, Checkers and some more.
    If a group of skilled people would manage to code a BYOND game that is playable normally via BYOND and in a normal webbrowser (DMCGI)that might attract a few people that are searching for that kind of games (I'd assume a good search engine-hitrate).
    The fact that the webbrowser interface does not need and should not even support signing up with a BYOND key seems important as that way people aren't scared off with "registration".
    However the webbrowser interface should grant all normal ingame features and mix BYOND and webplayers on the tables.
    A nice AI would certainly be healthy for such games.
    However... upon using the BYOND DS, you can use your BYOND key and get listed on a global scorebord (and maybe BYOND members are provided with extra features, such as seeing the "chance to win" value at poker).
    Unfortunately I do not have access to a Linux server and did not bother with DMCGI yet, but I'd certainly be willing to help with whatever little I can do.

  • BYOND as forum signature

    Forumsignatures still provide a cheap but effective advertising, if done propperly.
    Allowing to choose a little (if it's too big, it could cause a negative product image on BYOND) static "banner" linking to BYOND as forumsignature on other forum might be nice, if enough people happen to do that.
    Maybe even offer a little (PHP) generated image saying "I'm playing [gamehubname]", or "I'm reading [thread]", or just "I'd like to see you on BYOND" for forums that allow dynamically generated signatures.
    A little hint on the webpage for such a new feature might get people to think about including that in their signature.

  • Into, explanation and review Videos on Youtube

    Videos create attraction, even more with the younger customer.
    Some of the BYOND games could profit out of well made videos to introduce (and explain) them.
    Hotlinked Videos might be a neat add-on for the BYOND reviews as well, to complete the impression together with the screenshoots.
    Maybe a motivated group of people skilled at art could record some videos with software like Taksi and then cut and edit a nice looking presentation out of them.
    (Just for security reasons, I'd recommend not to record fangames, since I'm not sure about copyright there).

  • Surveys

    The only just recent survey on the age of the average BYOND member was a nice idea. Maybe additional surveys could come up with valuable information.
    For example "How did you find BYOND", "What needs to be improoved most urgent", "Do your friends know (play) about BYOND", "What would be a reason to buy a BYOND membership", or "Would you use prepaid BYOND hosting".
    I do not think that you'd have to give away BYOND memberships for these, but a simple little note on the webpage might attract enough people to attend.

  • Awards

    Similar to this german forum, awards might create a good amount of hits in search engines.
    For example, the owner of the game that attracts the most new customers within 3 month could win a free IPod Touch.
    Or the BYOND member that gets the highest Ref-Bonus by the end of the year gets a free Ipod Shuffle.
    The point being that people searching for "free ..." get directed straight to BYOND and additional motivation for the people that already are signed up members (shipping only inside US?).

  • Improoved cooperation with the developers (and hosts)

    Often people log in, to take a quick look at a game and then log out within less than a minute.
    That might trigger an automatic survey on what the person did not like on that game, with the option for the game owner to read these comments. They might, however, be interresting for the BYOND staff as well and could be concluded in an article on "sucessfull" gamedesign.
    Furthermore to reduce the bad experience of newcommers with hosting, if, after 5 seconds upon clicking "host", there is no message by the BYOND hub, there might be an automatic link to the routing help, maybe even with a detailed go through, asking the user to select his router and firewall in a select box and linking directly.

    More might be added later on.

    I'd like to encourage others to come up with ideas and/or discuss mine now though!

    P.S.: Thank you for reading and sorry if I made no sense *smiles*.
Sep 24 2008, 8:37 am
Alternatively people could... Start making good games that can be shown off to others.

Take Game Maker as an example. I'm not sure about it now, but 4-5 years ago it had none of what you listed. Maybe it had card games that people would make, it's forum was terrible (worse than BYONDS by miles), it didn't have any Youtube videos (Youtube didn't exist), no surveys, awards/contests or anything like that.
Despite all that it was getting over 1 million downloads a month. Simply because people were using it to make good games.

There was no need to all these extra things, and it rarely advertised it's self at all. That is simply because there was tens of thousands of people making games with it, some of them good. This drew in more than enough attention to make it as popular as it is today.

Rather than trying to do all these silly extras to get people to BYOND how about giving them a valid reason to come to, use and stick with BYOND instead? Telling people to use BYOND or saying there is contests probably wont do that. But showing them a bunch of totally kick ass games made with BYOND sure will!

In short, if you want more users on BYOND then increase the quality of games on BYOND (which incomparison to other similar programs is very low at the moment).
Do that and people will be drawn to BYOND and not something else.
Sep 25 2008, 12:38 am
In response to The Magic Man
The Magic Man wrote:
(...) Start making good games that can be shown off to others.

Now, while I certainly agree with you that nice appealing games are the very base to build on, I fear the users taste is varying.
What might be a good game for me, might not hit your taste at all.
If you are seeking for impressive graphics, I'd say most people looking that way will go for 3D games, rather than 2D ones.
And if you do not bother about graphics, there are some very nice games around on BYOND.

On the other hand, if you are sure that you can create a marvelous game that everyone would be longing to play, go ahead!

The Magic Man wrote:
Take Game Maker as an example. (...)
That is simply because there was tens of thousands of people making games with it, some of them good. This drew in more than enough attention to make it as popular as it is today.

The question would be, how did these "tens of thousands of people making games" find the product?
My guess would be, due to the name in combination with google being good advertisement.

The Magic Man wrote:
In short, if you want more users on BYOND then increase the quality of games on BYOND (which incomparison to other similar programs is very low at the moment).

Which is why I suggested an "automatic" comment on games you did only visit and log out functionality.

But how would you increase the quality of BYOND games, or what kind of quality are you exactly looking for?
Sep 25 2008, 1:17 am
In response to The Magic Man
Day in and day out I read something along the following: "Make better and more interesting games for people to play" yet I never see anyone doing it.

It could be that the people requesting are just players looking for something fun, or programmers looking for inspiration. But the fact is, it's all talk and no action.

But the fact is, nothing is getting done. It's just everyone telling everyone else to do it.

But the fact about game design, even on an engine such as BYOND. It all takes time, and if something takes time, chances are, it takes money. Something most of the people on BYOND don't have.
Sep 25 2008, 1:33 am
I'm not sure if you realise it or not, but DMCGI doesn't operate the same as DM. It's very, very difficult (if at all possible) to make a chess game that's real-time in a web-browser using BYOND.

BYOND already has a wide virarity of fun and interesting board games in it's collection. Not to mention stratergy and RPG games as well. There is no shortage of well-made games. Just not enough interest in them. Hell, I'd be surprised if a lot of people knew about them.

Chess
Last Robot Standing
XO - Five in a row
Checkers
Poker
BYOND Tabletop Gaming
Proelium
Duel Monsters Online
B17: Fortress over Germany
Castle
Incursion
Echelon

The list goes on. BYOND is full of fun little games here and there of all sorts of categories. You just have to know where to look, and find players interested in playing them.

(That list is a random list of games I remember people talking about from time to time, they all have "Host your own server" options or live servers often running. But I have no idea if the download link works. The point is, the games are there, just no-one seems interested.)
Sep 25 2008, 2:07 am
In response to Tiberath
Tiberath wrote:
I'm not sure if you realise it or not, but DMCGI doesn't operate the same as DM. It's very, very difficult (if at all possible) to make a chess game that's real-time in a web-browser using BYOND.

Like I said, I fail to have access to a Linux Server and thus could not even try to write code using DMCGI, however, by the name and description of the lib, I am under the impression that BYOND is simulating a CGI webserver in that "mode".
If that is the case, using ismap (or usemap and map/area-tags) with the img tag, a board (such as chess) game should be realizable, just as it would be using PHP.
Now, if you can still use world.Export (which I confess, I have no idea about), you can have a webpage hosted via DMCGI communicate and interact with a "normal" BYOND application.

The whole point was not in getting a better game, as that would be the wrong way to go, but in getting a good number of hits and having them introduced step by step to the world of BYOND (no signing up required at first).


Tiberath wrote:
BYOND already has a wide virarity of fun and interesting board games in it's collection. Not to mention stratergy and RPG games as well. There is no shortage of well-made games. Just not enough interest in them. Hell, I'd be surprised if a lot of people knew about them.

I agree with you on most of these points.


Tiberath wrote:
Poker

While I simply love some of the games you listed (esp. Proelium, which I hope to see you visit and play some day ;) ) I think that due to the lack of good AI and a bad bet / cash structure Kunark's Poker is a nice attempt, but plays bad.
I think the session with Mikau hosting it prooved that best.


Tiberath wrote:
(...)BYOND is full of fun little games here and there of all sorts of categories. You just have to know where to look, and find players interested in playing them.

That is why I suggested a waiting list and hope for it to be improoved still, as some games (Proelium, LRS, Mano a Mano,...) suffer when they are hosted and noone notices other players willing to play.

As for the good games on BYOND part, I preach the very same and you run in open doors with me.
I meant to give ideas on how to increase BYOND's player base though.
Sep 25 2008, 4:12 am
In response to Schnitzelnagler
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
The Magic Man wrote:
(...) Start making good games that can be shown off to others.

Now, while I certainly agree with you that nice appealing games are the very base to build on, I fear the users taste is varying.
What might be a good game for me, might not hit your taste at all.
If you are seeking for impressive graphics, I'd say most people looking that way will go for 3D games, rather than 2D ones.
And if you do not bother about graphics, there are some very nice games around on BYOND.

I wasn't talking about specific types of games to attract specific types of players.
BYOND is lacking any really good RPGs at the moment. If a few good ones were made they would obviously attract RPG players (not people who want action games).
If there was a few good games of a variety of genres to show off, it would attract a range of people.

Also, good graphics are not nescessarily 3D graphics. 2D graphics can look just as impressive.


The question would be, how did these "tens of thousands of people making games" find the product?
My guess would be, due to the name in combination with google being good advertisement.

Naw. Google wasn't even popular at the time. It also had some obscure website address and wasn't really advertised on any search engines (which back in those days was yahoo).
I personally found it by the games that were made with it. On some website that hosted a lot of freeware games and would list what it was made with (and if possible link to a website with this program). That is how I found Game Maker.


Which is why I suggested an "automatic" comment on games you did only visit and log out functionality.

But how would you increase the quality of BYOND games, or what kind of quality are you exactly looking for?

By quality I mean... HOW GOOD IS IT?
There is some good games on BYOND, but the vast majority of them, even the ones with the best ranks are not actually that good, and outside of BYOND people might actually laugh at how bad some of them are.
When a game is good enough that it can be shown to people outside of BYOND then it would be considered good enough I guess!


And I know people always talk about this, "make good games this and that blahblahblah". But it is the truth. Until BYOND get some decent games it wont be attracting many new people.
It is currently hard to advertise or to show off to people because the only things I have to show off are BAD GAMES (which isn't much good for attracting people), and people would be much more convinced as to what BYOND is capable of if I showed them some examples, which I cannot do.
When I am trying to advertise BYOND I have very little good things to say about it, and obviously cannot say bad things about it... So what am I left with to say exactly? "It makes online games" or something like that? (even then, people would be much more convinced if I had some kick ass games to show them)
Sep 25 2008, 6:21 am
In response to Schnitzelnagler
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
That is why I suggested a waiting list and hope for it to be improoved still, as some games (Proelium, LRS, Mano a Mano,...) suffer when they are hosted and noone notices other players willing to play.

Just FYI, this has been in place for a few weeks now. See: http://www.byond.com/members/ BYOND?command=view_post&post=47666

If you have ideas on how to improve this, let us know. I can't think of much beyond what we're doing (signups & alerts).

I am glad you brought up this topic. Despite being one of the more versatile gaming engines/communities, we really aren't all that popular among the mainstream. Our search placement is pretty lousy for a site of our size. We've spent some time on SEO work but it hasn't improved much. I think we need a large volume of users linking back to us (hence the referral banners) and/or lots of word of mouth. I would be willing to invest some in outside advertising if I had any faith it would work.

It is unfortunate we didn't go with a name like "Game Maker" (prob. available in 1996 when we got our domains!), since just the name alone is giving them plenty of traffic. However, there should be ways around that.
Sep 25 2008, 6:31 am
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
BYOND as forum signature

That would be nice if there was a banner making contest. I'm looking at you, Pixel Art Society.
Sep 25 2008, 6:41 am
In response to Tom
We could try getting BYOND on the front page at digg, or as I've said before, try to get some existing websites to notice BYOND. Has BYOND staff tried to get in contact with people at CNET? LifeHacker? Kotaku?

I still don't see metakeywords and descriptions on entry pages like http://www.byond.com/?page=Start

Even forum posts should have automatically generated meta tags, even if it's just the title of the post.

Do you guys use Google Webmaster Tools? If not, I highly recommend it.

Is there any way BYOND can generate an all-inclusive sitemap?

I know it may seem lame, but sign up for Blogger. Google owns it, Google loves it. Content content content!
Sep 25 2008, 7:04 am (Edited on Sep 25 2008, 7:13 am)
In response to The Magic Man
The Magic Man wrote:
I wasn't talking about specific types of games to attract specific types of players.
BYOND is lacking any really good RPGs at the moment.

You are contradicting yourself ;)


The Magic Man wrote:
If there was a few good games of a variety of genres to show off, it would attract a range of people.

There are good games on BYOND, if you just define good as balanced, original, fun,...
Only the mainstream young customer, that is used to her console, 3D accelerated, color-explosion game, is seeking an "interactive movie" with no brain involed, or in a bit less extreem words... looking for graphics rather than gameplay.


The Magic Man wrote:
(...)It also had some obscure website address and wasn't really advertised on any search engines (...)

Asides of the facts that I'm aware of which search engines used to be popular at what time (which would lead away from the topic), as a matter of fact a name such as "game maker" naturarily has a good score chance.
And that is the point, attracting enough (good) game designers.


The Magic Man wrote:
By quality I mean... HOW GOOD IS IT?

And that is the point.
Good is subjective. The idea of a good game is bound to vary with each person you ask, some more, some less.
Which is why I asked for a subjective definition of what you are looking for.


The Magic Man wrote:
When a game is good enough that it can be shown to people outside of BYOND then it would be considered good enough I guess!

I would show anyone interrested in decent gameplay to Proelium, StolenLands, Last Robot Standing, Mano a Mano, Castle, Freeze Tag, Wurms 2, or some others and I do not think the fun factor and the ideas of these games have to hide from comparison.




Edit:
To come back to the topic though, what do you think BYOND as such could improove to attract people (this includes active and "good" programmers making "good" games!)
What benefits does "Game Maker" offer that BYOND lacks?
Where would you see the reasons for a programmer or just a random person that drops by and just wants to create the game of her dreams to choose another software suite, but not BYOND?
Sep 25 2008, 7:09 am
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Just FYI, this has been in place for a few weeks now (...)
If you have ideas on how to improve this, let us know. I can't think of much beyond what we're doing (signups & alerts).

I know and I've been using the list whenever I could with pleasure and gratitude. However the current implementation does not work for games that are already hosted.
(e.g.: I can not sign up to be waiting for a Last Robot Standing game, since the servers are hosted 24/7, just waiting hours in the game for another player to log on is tiresome)
Sep 25 2008, 7:28 am
In response to Airjoe
Airjoe wrote:
We could try getting BYOND on the front page at digg, or as I've said before, try to get some existing websites to notice BYOND. Has BYOND staff tried to get in contact with people at CNET? LifeHacker? Kotaku?

I made some earlier forays into expanding with outside sites (although I was looking at more niche gaming sites to try to make partnerships). They didn't bear any fruit. I should look into some of these larger sites to see if we can attract some interest.

I still don't see metakeywords and descriptions on entry pages like http://www.byond.com/?page=Start

Google ignores the meta tags. We improved the titles and put some buzzwords in the main content.

Do you guys use Google Webmaster Tools? If not, I highly recommend it.

Yes, we've been using Analytics on the new site.

Thanks for the suggestions!
Sep 25 2008, 7:30 am
In response to Tom
There's no doubt having a large community is one of the selling points of BYOND, but besides a hub entry and server listing there aren't many things tying BYOND games to the site itself.

When are we going to get achievements and a gamerscore? They seem to be all the rage these days. Game Maker sure as heck wouldn't be able to trump that with their setup.
Sep 25 2008, 7:37 am
In response to Tom
I would argue that google does not ignore meta tags entirely. Do a Google search for "Prime Scuba", for example. The description given under the first result is actually the meta description for the site. I believe they do indeed use the keywords as well, just not as heavily weighted as the content itself. Also, while Google is king, there still are other search engines.

Also, there is more than just Analytics in the Webmaster Tools, are you using both or just Analytics? Just wanted to make sure because webmaster tools offers some extra features, showing you who is linking to your site (whether or not they referred someone), the most command words and phrases on the site, and it allows you to submit a sitemap.

I'm no SEO genius, but I have used some of these suggestions to get decent rankings for my own sites and those of my clients (granted of course these were much smaller playing fields compared to online game creation and playing).
Sep 25 2008, 8:51 am
In response to SuperAntx
For as great as those sound, they aren't easy. Mainly because BYOND is a free system, and if you allow people to create their own awards and points that tie into the key system, they will abuse that by creating fake hub entries to automatically give them 100 points(or whatever the max point system is per entry).

I kinda like PS3's trophy system. Basically developers have 100 points to give out, the points can be given out in one of 4 trophy types. So when you do something cool, not common, you might get a bronze trophy. This will give you 5 points. Silver is 10, Gold is 25, and Platinum is what you get for getting all 100(as I understand the system, actual number values vary).

Perhaps if the trophy system was a members only perk on the side of putting them in a game(non-members can earn them) and there was some sort of a limit on the total number of points a single account can dish out(so a member wont create 25 fake games so they can get 2,500 points). Awards should be able to have custom icons, but stock ones should match the site. The member pages should have a "favorite awards" and "latest awards" section. Also, the game hub pages should have a "high score" list to show the current award winning players in that game.

All together, it sounds great, but it sounds a lot easier than it really is to do all of it. You would also need a way for people to reject or remove awards they don't like. So if someone creates a "Biggest Jerk in the World" award, it doesn't have to show up on their members page.

Another issue is people just straight up cheating. When anybody can host a game, it would likely not be hard to lie to BYOND about awards earned.

Can you say complications?
Sep 25 2008, 9:18 am
In response to Danial.Beta
That's where I'd say the guilds come in. Being accepted into one of the sanctioned guild is pretty much the BYOND equivalent of being published, assuming random hub entries don't count.

Games of upstanding quality in the official guilds would be permitted to grant up to 100 gamer points. Any developers caught cheating or breaking the rules (ie:Biggest Jerk in the World award) would have their points stricken from the record and be barred from granting any points in the future.

Much like with developer rewards, the Anime Guild is the only major damper in I could think of. Then again, it's not fair to ostracize them when real money isn't on the table. Hopefully the people in charge are mature enough to not grant SSJdarkGoJiTa569 the ability to grand points for his new 100% original DBZ game.

At the end of the day it's still just a superficial number/trophy graphic nobody should be stressing over. Not much to worry about if things go a little wrong here and there.
Sep 25 2008, 9:24 am
In response to SuperAntx
Problem is, people do stress over it. I work with a man(a college educated accountant) that will play any game that will give him achievements, including, but not limited to, games like 'My Little Pony 7: They always come back'(made up game for dramatic effect).

Despite being totally fictional, people associate real value with them, and will cheat their way to the top, and the ones who don't cheat will feel cheated because they can't legitimately compete. I'll admit, I feel a little like that with the new Team Fortress 2 achievements. People have created maps just to make getting the achievements easier, yet someone like me who plays it by the book is punished, in this case with less weapons in the game.
Sep 25 2008, 10:14 am
In response to Tiberath
Tiberath wrote:
Day in and day out I read something along the following: "Make better and more interesting games for people to play" yet I never see anyone doing it.

That's because most people don't have the skill, motivation or resources to make it happen. Even when they do, they rely on tried and true designs, hardly ever venturing out into darker waters of development. That's probably because the amount of talent compared to the amount of desire is hampering exploration. If all the best developers are mainly making RPGs or simple board games, chances are the newbies will too.

There are occasionally new games that break the mold. TSiF was one of those, and earned quite a little following. I believe it was the first BYOND originals to have a BYOND fan game made about it.

It could be that the people requesting are just players looking for something fun, or programmers looking for inspiration. But the fact is, it's all talk and no action.

It's hard to make a game. It's even harder to make a good game. Ideas, those are the easy parts. Making them work is usually what people get stuck on. Sometimes it's a lack of experience or skill in design, other times it's the limitations of BYOND itself. Although most times it seems that lack of interest amongst your peers can have the greatest demotivating effect. It's hard to get behind a game all by yourself and still make it worth your time if nobody else seems to care whether it gets completed or not.


But the fact is, nothing is getting done. It's just everyone telling everyone else to do it.

I believe what needs to happen is that skilled developers and talented designers need to come together with these idea people to make something everyone can get behind. There's needs to be motivating factors to keep people focused, be it regular feedback from your fan base, a project leader to whip people into shape, or even a paycheck. Something more than just lip service from experienced developers who are suffering from the same issues.


But the fact about game design, even on an engine such as BYOND. It all takes time, and if something takes time, chances are, it takes money. Something most of the people on BYOND don't have.

Yeah, money can solve a number of problems for a developer, and open up new avenues. You can pay for good graphics, sounds and music. You can hire competent developers and testers. In the end, though, you still have to produce. If it's your money being put into the venture, it still may not solve the motivational problem.
Sep 25 2008, 10:43 am
In response to Schnitzelnagler
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
There are good games on BYOND, if you just define good as balanced, original, fun,...

Unfortunately, in this day, if it lacks quality graphics, gamers assume it lacks quality. If it lacks sound, music, instructions, gamers will run screaming. There's more to a game than game play, and if you want to attract real players, you will need to come to terms with this fact.

The graphical aspects of BYOND games are downplayed by developers and people giving advice to new developers. We tell them graphics aren't as important as game play, and we're right. However, it's also true that BAD graphics can ruin good game play. It's ok to use temporary stick men and hacked sprites for testing and development, but not as the final image for your game. Once the game play is working, you should focus on making the game look as nice as you can. Otherwise, you'll lose a ton of players before they even get to your game play mechanics.

Yes, graphics aren't what makes a game good, but they can be what makes it bad. A good game with good graphics is better than a good game with lousy graphics. We need to stop telling people not to focus on their artwork, because it's having the undesirable effect of leaving graphical quality in the dust. If all of our games look like they do now, we can expect this lack of new developers and players for the foreseeable future.


Only the mainstream young customer, that is used to her console, 3D accelerated, color-explosion game, is seeking an "interactive movie" with no brain involed, or in a bit less extreem words... looking for graphics rather than gameplay.

That's not entirely true. Most people who play games expect a certain amount of quality in the user interface. The level depends on the genre of the game. Board games and puzzle games can get away with Atari quality graphics, and some RPGs can manage a good NES look (DWO). Unfortunately, if your game doesn't match up with at least the NES, most people won't play it. I'd say anything less than SNES quality should be considered sub-par.


And that is the point.
Good is subjective.

Well, yes and no. We're looking to attract a large group of people, so we should focus on what the majority of gamers are expecting. We can be objective about it by setting certain common expectations as the baseline for our designs. Most gamers expect sound effects. We should provide them always. Most gamers expect music. We should try and work it into our games. Most gamers expect instructions, a help file or some tutorial to help them learn the game. Those need to be present. Most gamers expect at least NES or SNES quality images. We should aim for that.


The idea of a good game is bound to vary with each person you ask, some more, some less.
Which is why I asked for a subjective definition of what you are looking for.

If you want only subjective opinions from people who are already here, on what they think would be a fin game, you're not going to be getting the common opinion of people who are not here. :P


Edit:
To come back to the topic though, what do you think BYOND as such could improove to attract people (this includes active and "good" programmers making "good" games!)

Five high-quality blockbuster games that cover our major categories, with sound, music and art comparable with modern flash and internet games that we can use as our flagship games, to show people what BYOND can do when put to good use.

I'm sorry, but those games you listed won't cut it. Honestly, I can't think of any that would, save maybe Incursion or a few of the old board games, which are ancient even to us. I'd say find out what are the top five popular games on the web right now, then emulate them.


What benefits does "Game Maker" offer that BYOND lacks?

Well, for one, it is (or was) illegal to use. That'll draw people in for sure. Unfortunately, we can't go rouge with BYOND.

It also has huge resources of graphics and sounds and music. It makes it a lot easier when you are handed quality graphics and music to make a quality game.

Also, it's a lot simpler to make arcade games with GM, not so much with BYOND. We can do a Super Mario clone now with 4.0, but since that takes a LOT of work, most people won't even try. With GM, a Super Mario clone is almost too easy not to try.

Where would you see the reasons for a programmer or just a random person that drops by and just wants to create the game of her dreams to choose another software suite, but not BYOND?

The learning curve. BYOND has the highest of any game development suite I've seen. That also means we're the most powerful suite too. Unfortunately, that power isn't being utilized to it's greatest effect, because of the limitations of BYOND, lack of artists and musicians in our community, and the general blandness of most BYOND creations.

Simply put, we need games gamers will want to play, not games we think (as game developers) that gamers should find fun, once they get past their own eye candy issue. The issue isn't with the players we want to attract, it's with us. We're the ones with n issue with eye candy. We should deal with it.
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