SuperAntx wrote:
Single player games are almost impossible to find and the mass volume of empty hub entries flood out all the actual games. Single Player Games Guild. As I said previously, there's bound to be a player-made guild that'll cater to your taste, all you have to do is look. =) | |
Just like with the Pixel Art Society you have to know about it already before it's of any use. It's not exactly accessible to new users.
| |
SuperAntx wrote:
Just like with the Pixel Art Society you have to know about it already before it's of any use. It's not exactly accessible to new users. I love how even though there's been a dozen posts on that issue in this topic it's been ignored. Are we on to something? Or is it a "Lets just avoid this, it cant possible be a problem...Silly pixel artists..."? | |
SuperAntx wrote:
Just like with the Pixel Art Society you have to know about it already before it's of any use. It's not exactly accessible to new users. I found both easily enough. Then again, I knew Zenigwolf when Pixel Art was formed. And given my history on BYOND (I know a fair few pixel artists), it's not hard for me to come across. But still, finding them isn't all that difficult. By nature, every new guild makes a post announcing itself, that's the post you have to search for. Then again, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have a list of all BYOND guilds in some easy to find location. | |
Tiberath wrote:
But still, finding them isn't all that difficult. By nature, every new guild makes a post announcing itself, that's the post you have to search for. New users shouldn't have to dig through tons of old posts when a simple link could point them in the right direction. "Tiberath: Aww! Poor SAX! SuperAntx: It's not right up there in the little menu. Tiberath: Having to acutally look for something! Tiberath: Tell me, do you use Google at all?" This is the kind of garbage stagnating BYOND! Spewing this arrogance isn't going to fix anything. We're outright ignoring the pixel art community and shrugging off of new users yet we have the audacity to ask why we're plagued with rips and terrible graphics? I'm not saying a simple link is going to solve everything, but it's a step in the right direction. | |
We're outright ignoring the pixel art community and shrugging off of new users yet we have the audacity to ask why we're plagued with rips and terrible graphics?I agree that the link should be added, but where's the contradiction? Those are different groups of people. The BYOND Staff has the power to put things in the menu. The people who complained about rips and graphics were users in this thread. For the BYOND Staff, the question is why people are told to go to a place that is not listed in the menu when posting art. It's a waste of resources to jump on such things after the fact. PS: I understand the outdated address and the abundant content with a particular focus, but the BYOND Art Society is not restricted to pixels. It's an image problem. Tee hee. | |
Hmm, Tiberath, you are kind of contradicting yourself here.
You (rightfully) claim that the young customer anime part of BYOND kind of keeps the servers humming, yet you state that the BYOND interface and look should not be adjusted to the special need of these people. I agree that it is beneficial to take the time and effort to learn. I agree that BYOND is a good starting language and the doumentation is suitable for the needs of a mature person, willing and interrested to learn. Yet, I see Tom's fear and I can only tell from hearsay that Game Maker is the more successfull product (since I don't know about both projects financial flow). If these younger people can not focus for more than a day, then that is exactly the time you have to grant them some visual success. I took the chance, downloaded Game Maker and went through some of the tutorials. I took a look at the webpage and compared it with BYOND. I talked to a nice (younger) person on my pager that always tried to learn a programming language and can't get a grip on BYOND (no I won't mention names here). I do not think BYOND needs more ressources, I think it needs the very opposite, less of them. But it might need some ressources that give fast and easy success, that adept to the sloop which these people need to learn (and I'm sure "eye candy" would help there as well). And these ressources need to be prominent, easy to find and up to date. I would be willing to join a little team of people that try to compile such "tutorials", but that would all be in vain if these tutorials would vanish under the flood of hundreds and hundreds of other demos, libraries and tutorials. I would love to see a "beginner friendly" homepage, moderated and maintained by some skilled and devoted people like you and the other forum moderators. I do not say there couldn't be an advanced user look, but I say that if you want to attract more of these paying customers we need and "beginners page look" would certainly help. (No offense intended as I actually like your work here and admire your spirit and endurance) | |
Tib babbles:
Sending people who know what BYOND is directly to Dream Makers when they want to start programming, is also a waste of time, unless they have eyes. At last check, most people *do* have eyes. :p Not everyone needs their hand held. Nothing wrong in directing interested people to the Dream Makers guild. Those with programming experience may be able to jump straight into the tutorials there, as many have. But most of the rest of your post is good stuff. We don't need to demand more resources - there is a lot here to offer a potential BYOND developer or gamer once they are here. Suggesting a programming contest to non-BYOND and non-Anime-centric communities is not a bad idea either. Just needs to be planned out a bit. | |
It should be accessible through finding one single player game and checking which guilds it belongs to. Usually the best way to find games that you're looking for is to find one, and then check its associations to find more.
That said, if you know of any good single player games that aren't listed in the guild, do submit them. | |
SuperAntx wrote:
Tiberath wrote: [edit]This page is also very handy. And accessible from the top menu. So you're saying that every guild ever created for any reason should be placed on a page that people can read? Or are you saying a select few guilds should be placed there? If you do that, owners of other guilds will start crying elitism. After that happens, we're back to this thread having the same conversation again. I hate to say it, but that'd be even more pointless than a simple web-search. Being blasted with that much data would only confuse a user. [17:44:44] SuperAntx: Tib, "that's the post you have to search for," that's exactly what I'm talking about. [17:44:52] SuperAntx: You have to SEARCH for it. "Tiberath: Aww! Poor SAX![17:45:12] SuperAntx: New users have no idea about it. [17:45:15] Tiberath: If you do! [17:45:21] Tiberath: Yell at the internet for making new users look for stuff! If you're going to quote me, at least quote everything we say, and not just little portions of it. I left out your last sentence because it wasn't necessary to quote. =) This is the kind of garbage stagnating BYOND! Spewing this arrogance isn't going to fix anything. You're right, but demanding everything be placed in a nice little bubble everywhere you go isn't going to help either. Putting Audiophiles and Pixel Art in the Developers menu, that's no big deal, it'll certainly aid developers who somehow have managed to go unknowing of them. But from what I gather you're saying, you want every guild ever created in the menu somewhere. I don't know about you, but bloating menus with more stuff than is necessary is a waste of space, and ultimately makes the website usability lower than it was previously. The search box is there for a reason, I have no problems using it, why do so many others? We're outright ignoring the pixel art community and shrugging off of new users yet we have the audacity to ask why we're plagued with rips and terrible graphics? I don't recall ever asking those questions. I also don't recall shrugging off new users. New users who find their way to BYOND Help or the Dev Forums, if found by the right person, will be pointed in the right direction. And naturally, the right person is generally always just around the corner. I'm not saying a simple link is going to solve everything, but it's a step in the right direction. From your tone, you're asking for hundreds of links. You didn't know about the Single Player Games Guild. A guild started by Foomer because he likes them. From what I gather you're saying, you're asking, nae, demanding, there be a link to that guild somewhere easily accessible, say the menu. There are hundreds of player-made guilds out there. It's impossible to put that many links in the menu. That's why we have the search box. I don't see what you have against looking for things. It's a natural part of any website. Demanding that everything be placed in front of you is ludicrous. | |
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
Hmm, Tiberath, you are kind of contradicting yourself here. Everything is fairly easy as it is. I can navigate the BYOND site far better than I could back in the days of 2003. If Anime customers want anime games, they hover over the Games tab, and right there is a link to BYOND Anime. If they want RPGs, there's a link to BYOND RPG. If they want to pick and choose, there's a link to all. And as I've stated now countless (not really, I just don't want to read through my posts and count them) times, the search box is there, and very easy to use. BYOND's site navigation has never been easier. I agree that it is beneficial to take the time and effort to learn. As much as it sickens me to say it, yes, Game Maker is more successful. Our user-base runs into the low thousands. Theirs is much, much higher. If these younger people can not focus for more than a day, then that is exactly the time you have to grant them some visual success. If they can't focus for more than a day. Visual tidbits probably aren't going to be much use. I doubt they'll want to learn. I took the chance, downloaded Game Maker and went through some of the tutorials. You should forward him in my direction then. I'll go through the basics with him. It's not like I've got anything better to do with my time at the moment... I do not think BYOND needs more ressources, I think it needs the very opposite, less of them. I fail to see how that works at all. (Bare in mind, I said it was unfair to demand more resources from developers, in case anyone is trying to look for a contradiction in my words.) More resources, if written correctly, are more tools for learning. Following tutorials and such will allow the user to get more visual success far quicker, which above is your stated goal. But it might need some ressources that give fast and easy success, that adept to the sloop which these people need to learn (and I'm sure "eye candy" would help there as well). I fail to see how you can do that in a language such as BYOND. You wont get anything visually sexy unless you actually strive to make it, that's the problem. Everyone's looking for a quick fix. BYOND isn't RPG Maker, you can't click your button three times and have a kick ass game. It just doesn't work that way (and I'm happier for it!). And otherwise, if they just want the power to see what BYOND can do A Step BYOND would probably be an adequate link. They get a fully documented source code, as well as a playable game. It should do as you wish, but a beginner probably wont be able to understand the source right away. I would be willing to join a little team of people that try to compile such "tutorials", but that would all be in vain if these tutorials would vanish under the flood of hundreds and hundreds of other demos, libraries and tutorials. Join the Dream Makers guild and submit them. (I'm fairly sure you're able to submit posts for review to Dream Makers) They wont get lost there. Dream Makers has a lot of resources yes, but once again, it all comes back to search. Make the title of the tutorial clear and concise. No cryptic titles or jokes. Straight and to the point, then your tutorial will be found by those looking. I would love to see a "beginner friendly" homepage, moderated and maintained by some skilled and devoted people like you and the other forum moderators. The problem with such moderation is, it's rare. Everyone has hardware failures, everyone stops caring and from time to time, people can have accidents. It's impossible to expect something to be moderated all day every day. But I'm just grasping at hairs, you're onto something there. But with that said, how can the start page be any more beginner than it actually is? (http://www.byond.com/?page=TheGames -> I just noticed, it says "You must create an account before you can play", this information is now outdated. People can now play as guests again.) (No offense intended as I actually like your work here and admire your spirit and endurance) Spirit? Endurance? ... Work? And relax, it'll take a lot (seriously, a lot) to offend me. | |
Tiberath wrote:
Everything is fairly easy as it is. If it is not for the homepage, or the language itself, then how is Game Maker more successfull? I agree that they are more advertised around game creation homepages and that the name is bound to attract more players by itself, but I can't belive that this is all there is. And since we both agree that BYOND has good games and the BYOND stuff couldn't change anything on that fact either, unless indirectly, it would have to stuck down to either presentation or capability of the product. Tiberath wrote: I can navigate the BYOND site far better than I could back in the days of 2003. Comparing a product as to what it was before is never a goo marketing strategy. It is not your past alter ego competing with you, but the other products out there that you have to beat. Tiberath wrote: If Anime customers want anime games, they hover over the Games tab, and right there is a link to BYOND Anime(...) I did not talk about games, I think they are solved rather well. A menu with "Games", showing every important subcategory is rather intuitive. I dare say that the "Developers" couterpart lacks userfriendly ideas though and that is what I was trying to hint at. Rename it to "Make (or create) games" and have it show a selection with Beginner and Advanced (maybe intermediate as well). A true young, impatient beginner does not want to search. S/He does not know what to search for either. Give her/him some nice little tutorials on how to start and offer a selected few, good demos (and maybe libraries). Only then link her/him to the Guide and the Reference, but take her/his hand in the beginning and guide her/him through, even though you might pamper him/her a bit, that might get more beginners hocked than it does now and I think that is the sole purpose of his thread. Coming up with ideas on how to improove the content and thus attract more customers to BYOND. Tiberath wrote: If they can't focus for more than a day. Visual tidbits probably aren't going to be much use. I doubt they'll want to learn. Yet, they seem to be willing to learn more with other attempts, as you stated yourself that Game Maker was more successfull. If it is not for an easier learning, nor for fast success and neither for the headstart on graphics, then what is it? And I'm convinced BYOND can do these three just as good as Gamemaker can, since I like BYOND and truely believe in it. Tiberath wrote: You should forward him in my direction then. I'll go through the basics with him. It's not like I've got anything better to do with my time at the moment... "Been there, tried that", as they say. Now I might not be the best person when it comes to programming, or to explaining, I don't think I'm the worst either. I'd have two proposals for you(r time) though that I'd talk about with you on the pager if you like ;) Tiberath wrote: More resources, if written correctly, are more tools for learning. Following tutorials and such will allow the user to get more visual success far quicker, which above is your stated goal. You are right. But there is a problem to that. For that to work as you hoped for, you need to avoid to "spamm" the customer to the point where s/he gives up. There are way too many, let's call them unperformat, solutions for a task out there. Tiberath wrote: I fail to see how you can do that in a language such as BYOND. You wont get anything visually sexy unless you actually strive to make it, that's the problem. Now, you can get an "Avatar based chat client" to run with only a few lines of code in BYOND, something that takes a lot more work in other languages and authoring tools. Only my skill to provide graphics for such a tutorial are maybe even less developed than yours. Given the fact that people even consider my stick figures ugly, I can only admire a dead goat for it's artisitc skills. A muliplayer game where people have to "schoot" running victims, while they can hinder their enemies is nearly just as easy. A very simple RPG is more than a bit of work, but as you can see in some of the demos, even that can be done within the limitations a tutorial forces on you. Tiberath wrote: And otherwise, if they just want the power to see what BYOND can do A Step BYOND would probably be an adequate link. They get a fully documented source code, as well as a playable game. It should do as you wish, but a beginner probably wont be able to understand the source right away. Just tossing the source at a beginner won't work, even when fully documented. Tiberath wrote: Join the Dream Makers guild and submit them. (I'm fairly sure you're able to submit posts for review to Dream Makers) They wont get lost there. Dream Makers has a lot of resources yes, but once again, it all comes back to search. Make the title of the tutorial clear and concise. No cryptic titles or jokes. Straight and to the point, then your tutorial will be found by those looking. I try my very best at giving working subjects and I would be up for the idea, but as I mentioned, I lack both the pedagogical and the graphical skill. Maybe I even lack the programing skill, that I do not know. I would only contribute to the number, but not to the quality and easy accessabiliy of the content, which are the two points I criticise. Tiberath wrote: The problem with such moderation is, it's rare. Everyone has hardware failures, everyone stops caring and from time to time, people can have accidents. It's impossible to expect something to be moderated all day every day. But I'm just grasping at hairs, you're onto something there. But with that said, how can the start page be any more beginner than it actually is? Moderation, or more precisely, aquiring a skilled team for it is certainly a problem, but a problem I'm sure Lummox Jr. and Tom can solve. If these two and Dan had a plane accident, I'm sure BYOND would be in trouble anyway, which means, just like with coca cola recipe holders, the three of them may never again board the same plane! *smiles* Give the some selected people PHP (or maybe even only template) access to parts of the homepage, allowing for a moderated and up to date FAQ (including some often asked for code problems), for moderated user comments to the DM Reference, for selecting and placing special very usefull and good tutorials/introductions on a special beginner section and to create a "free graphic/sound ressource" page contributed by the two guilds. Tiberath wrote: Spirit? Endurance? ... Work? And relax, it'll take a lot (seriously, a lot) to offend me. Yes, I did read some of your postings, especially on the "Help-Forum" ;) | |
Tiberath wrote:
From your tone, you're asking for hundreds of links. I don't know how the art guild and possibly single player games turned into hundreds of links, but ok. Too much politics for Tib. As for the elitism, I don't understand where you're coming from. Single player games have a legitimate reason to make them more accessible. Currently to find them you have to go to Games>All>Single Player Games in Popular Guilds(which isn't always there)>Games. This is just ridiculous. | |
SuperAntx wrote:
As for the elitism, I don't understand where you're coming from. Single player games have a legitimate reason to make them more accessible. [...] And the same for every other guild. So why should the SPG and the art guild be there (ie in the Games/Developers menu) and not others? There's your elitism. The guilds shown in the menu bar are there because they're official guilds. | |
Kaioken wrote:
The guilds shown in the menu bar are there because they're official guilds. Well, maybe they should be officially sanctioned. There's no secret law forbidding it. | |
Kaioken wrote:
SuperAntx wrote: The Pixel Art Guild is pretty much the Dream Makers guild for Artwork, Thats why it should be on the front page. It SHOULD be an official guild, as its purpose is to provide BYOND's artists with constructive criticism, and make them better overall. Theres no elitism there, the guild needs to be front paged. | |
Kaioken wrote:
SuperAntx wrote: Lets put a little more thought into our posts. Newcomers don't need to know about "dungeon crawlers" or "roleplayers guild" to make a game. Obviously these three correlate the strongest to game development. The focus in those specific guilds being that our developers improve in both areas. Even though this is the only place where you can learn dm if you haven't noticed this isn't the only place in the world where players can play good games. Which is why we need to improve the weak areas on byond. It takes "two" to make a game; both code and art. You cant be ignorant if we want to compete with other companies, we're simply expanding our thoughts trying to make a "change". You should probably read more posts before you make an input. This way it's typically harder for a person to chime in and make a !face out of theirself right before any promotions. For people who don't like to read, here are some of the benefits I listed prior to altercations: <font color = teal>Marketing Scheme: What if we moved "pixel-art" to the front page? And promoted it's existence? • We have many intelligent programmers, now what if we were to attract serious artists such as people like http://www.pixeljoint.com/? • Give people another reason to use Byond. We can attract a certain group of people that come here to learn pixel art. • Believe it or not there's not many pixel sites on the net so it's sure to come up on google. Pixeljoint itself has 20,000 members. Then there's pixelation which is probably not too far off. • Developers all over the net will come here looking for staff. Where there's developers there's more opportunity, it's almost inevitable that they'll check the rest of the site out.</font color = teal> | |
Hulio-G wrote:
Lets put a little more thought into our posts. Newcomers don't need to know about "dungeon crawlers" or "roleplayers guild" to make a game. <small>(You're kind of mixing up the different menus - there's one for 'Games', and one for 'Developers'. Of course you don't need the stuff on 'Games' to make games, but on 'Developers')</small> Newcomers don't need the BYOND site to learn graphics art, either. There are better, specialized sites for that with bigger communities, unlike with Dream Makers, where BYOND.com is really the only real place for getting help with Dream Maker - just so you guys see it's not equivalent to the art guild at all, to be frank. But anyway, rejoice, your guild is on the menu! =P As well as the 'sound guild'. | |
Kaioken wrote:
Newcomers don't need the BYOND site to learn graphics art, either. There are better, specialized sites for that with bigger communities, unlike with Dream Makers, where BYOND.com is really the only real place for getting help with Dream Maker - just so you guys see it's not equivalent to the art guild at all, to be frank. Then why are you even in the topic? This is about bringing more members to BYOND. And having somewhere for them to learn not only byond programming, but how to do pixel art (on, or off of DM). Why would you send people off somewhere else to learn something that can easily be taught and discussed here? The way your thinking, nothing would change. But with more people being brought here to learn pixel art (who then see that they can make games aswell, if they havnt already) It can very well become just as good as pixelation or pixel joint. | |
You're onto something here, we need to tune up the way we look for games. Single player games are almost impossible to find and the mass volume of empty hub entries flood out all the actual games.
Perhaps we could have a few more sort by options such as sort by best average review score (yea/nay would tie into the review's impact on the search), and most downloaded. There could be checkboxes for excluding empty hub entries and listing only games which you can download rather than just having a 24/7 server.
There could also be tags listed on the hub page for games which don't be fit into one single genre. Clicking on one of the tabs would send you to a search page of every other game which shares the same tag.
Also, when using the top bar to search it would be nice if whatever you searched for carried over to the next page rather than being blanked out.
In an unrelated note about BYOND Anime dominating everything else, it doesn't help that the Anime Guild shares almost the exact same color scheme as the main BYOND site. Having more games than every other guild and sharing the same color scheme could lead people to believe anime games are the main purpose of BYOND.