Rips as "Mods"

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Oct 7 2009, 7:56 pm
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
Nick231 wrote:
I'm the one who's owned zeta for a long time and worked with Raekwon on it going back as far as 7 years.

Doesn't sound like you were the original to begin with.


And I still don't think you people are seeing what I'm trying to get across here. It's not like there will just be a giant list of 30,000 servers from all the rips on your hub. There will be a separate section of links to their hub entries.
And wasn't the SS13 source completely jacked by a dmb extractor because the original developer left BYOND?

And you're not getting what I'm saying I do not want so much as a seperate section of my hub for hub entries tagged on because they were ripped. I don't care if it's buried under some little tab at the side of the page. I don't want it in any way shape or form since I not only had nothing to do with them, but I just outright don't want them on my hub.

SS13 was something with a dmb extractor. I think it did recieve the blessings of the original developer at some point though since it's now more or less completely open source when it was previously just a way to fix some pretty critical bugs.


Parent/Child hub setups could be very handy mind you, I'm not saying they wouldn't. But I'm completely against forcing rips onto the creators hub entries if they don't want them there.
Oct 7 2009, 8:00 pm
In response to Nick231
Nick231 wrote:
And you're not getting what I'm saying I do not want so much as a seperate section of my hub for hub entries tagged on because they were ripped. I don't care if it's buried under some little tab at the side of the page. I don't want it in any way shape or form since I not only had nothing to do with them, but I just outright don't want them on my hub.
Parent/Child hub setups could be very handy mind you, I'm not saying they wouldn't. But I'm completely against forcing rips onto the creators hub entries if they don't want them there.

Doesn't matter much. I'd recommend putting them on the Reakwon hub anyway, since to the best of my knowledge he was the original creator. I've never even heard of you before, and his hub was around years before yours was.
Oct 7 2009, 8:03 pm
In response to Axerob
Axerob wrote:
BLN's sourcecode was never leaked, and thanks for reminding me that Rebirth wwas a zeta rip, I forgot :3.

So is BLN a rip then? Or does it just happen to be using the same graphics and systems as all the rips =P
Oct 7 2009, 8:04 pm
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
Axerob wrote:
BLN's sourcecode was never leaked, and thanks for reminding me that Rebirth wwas a zeta rip, I forgot :3.

So is BLN a rip then? Or does it just happen to be using the same graphics and systems as all the rips =P

You clever little devil, I see what you're saying...!

And Nope, I believe BLN was the first Bleach game to come out on BYOND.
Oct 7 2009, 8:05 pm
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
Who the hell cares if they're willing? Last time I checked they didn't make sure it was OK with thieves before they threw them in jail.

If they're not willing, you bet they're going to just recreate their hub entry to bypass this scheme you've got going.

Yea, you're obviously still not understanding the most basic concept of this discussion then.

No, I'm not. Why not? Because you're not making sense.

I say that it would be a good idea to just put all the hub entries under a single hub entry, perhaps as a "sub-hub entry" and only allow the parent to show up in searches.

In the first post of this discussion, I see you pretty much saying the same thing: all these hub entries of rips should be linked to a single hub entry (and thus, per definition become "childs" of that hub entry as I said).

Then in the posts in reply to mine, you talk about this as if it's a whole different thing. Well, excuse me for not getting it, but what exactly do you mean?

The ban button.

So BYOND Staff is going to just ban everyone who recreates their hub entry?

Not only will they have to spend time linking all the entries that can't be automatically linked by a query (games which don't have the words "DBZ" or "Dragonball" or "Zeta" in their title for instance), but they'll also have to start banning the part of the community that is bringing in the most money in terms of BYOND Memberships? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me!

If random ripper #9999 has full access to deciding what their game is a rip of, or what games have ripped them; you can't see how that will be abused?

Not quite.

4500 noobs will say their dbz game is a rip of Seika;

Except the hub entry for "Seika" does not have the "this game has modifications" flag enabled, so they can't submit their game to the Seika hub for it to appear as a mod of Seika to begin with.

the other 4500 noobs will say sieka is a rip of their dbz rip.

Except none of these 4500 people own the Seika hub, so how are they supposed to make the link?

Guilds need to die altogether. I think they've had plenty of time to completely fail, and have doneso multiple times over. How long are we going to keep them around?

At least the guilds can be policed by the guild masters. Perhaps guilds need to be encouraged somehow, or given more control? But the answer is not to make Tom and Lummox JR start policing every rip. I for one would like to see isometric maps completely finished, not cast aside because Lummox JR is too busy banning 1/5th of the community.

And again, that fancy ban feature they have.

In the end there are only two solutions:
1) Tom and Lummox JR spend the remainder of the year banning people.
2) Volunteers get access to the "ban this person from the entire BYOND Hub" button and chaos ensues if a single person abuses it.

For the 4th time now. FINDING A WAY TO PROPERLY LINK THESE RIPS WILL BE THE MOST COMPLICATED PART OF THIS PLAN.

The problem isn't as much with linking the rips as making them stay. You want to link all DBZ games to a single entry? Then just perform a query to search for the words "DBZ", "Dragonball" and "Zeta" and link those to a single hub entry, then scout the hub real quick and link the stragglers. That and the rest of the games should be done in a couple of hours.

The real issue here is to make these people stay linked. A lot of these people will just recreate their hub entry, and I don't think you want the development of BYOND to be put on hold because - gasp! - SSJBrolly has recreated his hub entry for the nth time.

The anime guild is already pretty devoid of rips, so that's a pretty moot point. But yes, the goal here is to stop random rips from appearing all over the hub. If you want to play a rip, you have to go through the original's hub, into the mod section, where you can view nothing but the mods for that game.

I get the basic point, and I've already stated my version of it (sub-hub entries with a few limitations). But what exactly is this going to be?

Are all these games going to be childs of a single, parent hub entry whereby the childs can't be searched unless you search within the parent entry?
Or are all these hub entries simply going to be linked to a single hub entry, still making them searchable and only adding a "Repository of Rips" to the BYOND Hub which will only function to degrade the games posted within?

And finally, besides the ban button or any form of manual intervention, what prevents me from just recreating my hub entry or changing the name of my game to a non-DBZ name so it won't be caught by any filter?

It seems like you people are a little slow in the head, and not getting the general concept here, so just quiet down. Tom seems to understand it just fine, and since he's the only one that really matters and all...

It's always nice to be told that I'm "a little slow in the head" and that there are others way more important than me. It really helps out to say things like that, although now I share Vic's opinion that you're quite slow in the head yourself.
Oct 7 2009, 8:06 pm
In response to Axerob
Axerob wrote:
And Nope, I believe BLN was the first Bleach game to come out on BYOND.

I think this was! http://www.byond.com/games/Sylmerality/SoulSociety
Though I thought it was originally released by VonFlanel, or whatever his name was.
Oct 7 2009, 8:09 pm
In response to Nick231
Nick231 wrote:
And you're not getting what I'm saying I do not want so much as a seperate section of my hub for hub entries tagged on because they were ripped. I don't care if it's buried under some little tab at the side of the page. I don't want it in any way shape or form since I not only had nothing to do with them, but I just outright don't want them on my hub.

Then that's an issue right there, which can only be resolved by removing all those games ripped from your source-code. Except that's going to require some heavy policing.

What would you rather want: all these rips to be all over the hub, spamming people who search for games? Or linked to your own hub entry, where you can write a story on how the game got ripped and inform the newbies coming there that these self-proclaimed "creator of worlds" are nothing more than petty thieves?

SS13 was something with a dmb extractor. I think it did recieve the blessings of the original developer at some point though since it's now more or less completely open source when it was previously just a way to fix some pretty critical bugs.

"More or less" indeed. Most versions are open-source, except the goons' version is open to goons only. So no go if you're a regular developer.

Parent/Child hub setups could be very handy mind you, I'm not saying they wouldn't. But I'm completely against forcing rips onto the creators hub entries if they don't want them there.

Again, where would you like the rips to be shown? On a single hub entry where you can control the description, banner, etc. or all over the hub, spamming you as you try to search for something original?
Oct 7 2009, 8:11 pm
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
Nick231 wrote:
And you're not getting what I'm saying I do not want so much as a seperate section of my hub for hub entries tagged on because they were ripped. I don't care if it's buried under some little tab at the side of the page. I don't want it in any way shape or form since I not only had nothing to do with them, but I just outright don't want them on my hub.
Parent/Child hub setups could be very handy mind you, I'm not saying they wouldn't. But I'm completely against forcing rips onto the creators hub entries if they don't want them there.

Doesn't matter much. I'd recommend putting them on the Reakwon hub anyway, since to the best of my knowledge he was the original creator. I've never even heard of you before, and his hub was around years before yours was.

Theres plenty of stuff around about be being connected with zeta, aswell as a thread where he said he passed it on to me back in '06 so it doesn't matter if you've ever heard of me or not.

It also doesn't matter who the hub they end up on belongs to. People should not have to have rips on their hub unless they wish to have them there.
Oct 7 2009, 8:16 pm
In response to Nick231
Nick231 wrote:
It also doesn't matter who the hub they end up on belongs to. People should not have to have rips on their hub unless they wish to have them there.

Fine! Dump them on a "BYOND Rips" key.
Oct 7 2009, 8:18 pm (Edited on Oct 7 2009, 8:24 pm)
In response to Android Data
Android Data wrote:
So BYOND Staff is going to just ban everyone who recreates their hub entry?

They did it to me =P

Except the hub entry for "Seika" does not have the "this game has modifications" flag enabled, so they can't submit their game to the Seika hub for it to appear as a mod of Seika to begin with.
Except none of these 4500 people own the Seika hub, so how are they supposed to make the link?

If everyone has to manually do this then nobody ever will. Either out of sheer laziness, lack of knowledge, or unwillingness. That's definitely not high on the list of ways to implement this feature.

I for one would like to see isometric maps completely finished, not cast aside because Lummox JR is too busy banning 1/5th of the community.

Having a new completely unprovoked/unrequested feature, that was completely do-able before, will probably be half-assed and not fully supported, can't really be implemented into older games, and doesn't really add anything from the design aspect doesn't interest me much at all. Not to mention the thousand previously working things that I'm sure it will manage to break.
Not to mention the countless things that have actually been requested, and the list of minor-major bugs that need fixing...
And regardless, Tom and Lummox shouldn't be the ones in charge of policing these rips, at least not entirely. They should have a team just like they do to monitor the forums.

In the end there are only two solutions:
1) Tom and Lummox JR spend the remainder of the year banning people.
2) Volunteers get access to the "ban this person from the entire BYOND Hub" button and chaos ensues if a single person abuses it.

They already have staff that patrols the forums, I don't see why they won't get ones for the hub.
If you take things a little at a time, only bothering with games as they come online, I don't see why this would be a problem at all.

It's always nice to be told that I'm "a little slow in the head" and that there are others way more important than me. It really helps out to say things like that, although now I share Vic's opinion that you're quite slow in the head yourself.

lol I said you weren't as important as Tom and you decide I'm slow in the head? Makes about as much sense as anyone else around here.
Oct 7 2009, 8:20 pm
In response to Nick231
Nick231 wrote:
It also doesn't matter who the hub they end up on belongs to. People should not have to have rips on their hub unless they wish to have them there.

I don't want em in my searches, spamming up the main hub, so I guess your point is negated.
Oct 7 2009, 8:20 pm
In response to Android Data
Android Data wrote:
Nick231 wrote:
And you're not getting what I'm saying I do not want so much as a seperate section of my hub for hub entries tagged on because they were ripped. I don't care if it's buried under some little tab at the side of the page. I don't want it in any way shape or form since I not only had nothing to do with them, but I just outright don't want them on my hub.

Then that's an issue right there, which can only be resolved by removing all those games ripped from your source-code. Except that's going to require some heavy policing.

What would you rather want: all these rips to be all over the hub, spamming people who search for games? Or linked to your own hub entry, where you can write a story on how the game got ripped and inform the newbies coming there that these self-proclaimed "creator of worlds" are nothing more than petty thieves?

Being on my hub entry would imply association with them. I do not want to be associated with the rips in any way shape or form. Unfortunately I'd be stuck with them being zeta rips but beyond that no I won't willingly have any further association. I don't want to have to justify how mine is the original. Beyond that, most of the big offenders end up having their hub entries suppressed since they like using the same banners/hub icons.
Oct 7 2009, 8:22 pm
In response to Nick231
Nick231 wrote:
Being on my hub entry would imply association with them. I do not want to be associated with the rips in any way shape or form. Unfortunately I'd be stuck with them being zeta rips but beyond that no I won't willingly have any further association. I don't want to have to justify how mine is the original. Beyond that, most of the big offenders end up having their hub entries suppressed since they like using the same banners/hub icons.

Just because you supposedly got the source in a legit way doesn't make it any less of a "mod". It belongs on the original zeta hub with the rest of them.
Oct 7 2009, 8:25 pm
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
Nick231 wrote:
It also doesn't matter who the hub they end up on belongs to. People should not have to have rips on their hub unless they wish to have them there.

I don't want em in my searches, spamming up the main hub, so I guess your point is negated.

That's the most juvenile response in this thread so far. I don't like them either but that still doesn't mean they should be forced onto someone 's hub entry.
Oct 7 2009, 8:35 pm
In response to Android Data
Android Data wrote:
Nick231 wrote:
It also doesn't matter who the hub they end up on belongs to. People should not have to have rips on their hub unless they wish to have them there.

Fine! Dump them on a "BYOND Rips" key.

Honestly at that point, just delete them, change policy on ripped games to being not allowed and proceed from there. Any that have changed substantially to the point they're different games can be left alone. The few disgruntled "developers" who ripped games can just go whine on Encyclopedia Dramatica or something.
Oct 7 2009, 8:37 pm
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
Nick231 wrote:
Being on my hub entry would imply association with them. I do not want to be associated with the rips in any way shape or form. Unfortunately I'd be stuck with them being zeta rips but beyond that no I won't willingly have any further association. I don't want to have to justify how mine is the original. Beyond that, most of the big offenders end up having their hub entries suppressed since they like using the same banners/hub icons.

Just because you supposedly got the source in a legit way doesn't make it any less of a "mod". It belongs on the original zeta hub with the rest of them.

Except Zeta in it's entirety was given to me. Unless of course you're saying Raekwon's zeta hub should go under Dracon's in addition to mine.
Oct 7 2009, 8:41 pm
In response to Nick231
Nick231 wrote:
Except Zeta in it's entirety was given to me. Unless of course you're saying Raekwon's zeta hub should go under Dracon's in addition to mine.

What hub you talking about? And if you have "entire" control of it, then just use his hub. There should be no reason to make your own unless you're trying to steal credit for the game like the 9000 other noobs, which sure seems like whats going on.
Oct 7 2009, 8:48 pm
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
Nick231 wrote:
Except Zeta in it's entirety was given to me. Unless of course you're saying Raekwon's zeta hub should go under Dracon's in addition to mine.

What hub you talking about? And if you have "entire" control of it, then just use his hub. There should be no reason to make your own unless you're trying to steal credit for the game like the 9000 other noobs, which sure seems like whats going on.

Firstly I don't have access to his key and Raekwon hasn't been around since before you were able to grant access to hub entries.

And secondly stop accusing me of something you have no prior knowledge on. A few searches would be all it would take for you to verify what I've said. Theres plenty of people aware of it (including some members of BYOND staff) so I'm not worried about it, but I still don't appreciate the accusations.
Oct 7 2009, 11:40 pm
In response to Nick231
Falacy wrote:
To start off with, are you completely retarded? Or just completely against this idea? Or just too incompetent to comprehend it?

Android Data wrote:
I share Vic's opinion that you're quite slow in the head yourself.

Please don't flame each other on the forums. If you really want to have a go at each other, take it to your pager.

--

Falacy wrote:
Android Data wrote:
So BYOND Staff is going to just ban everyone who recreates their hub entry?

They did it to me =P

Granted this was before my time as a moderator here, but I'm fairly sure that you were banned for Hentai Hill's hub. And that was a game BYOND didn't want on their server. You were free to continue making it and whatnot, but you weren't allowed to advertise it on BYOND. I believe that is the gist of why you were banned, refusal to stop making a hub page for that game.

--

What Nick is saying is: He doesn't want rips associated with his game hub. And I imagine that can be said for many game owners. If I made a game and it somehow got leaked, I wouldn't want any rips of my game associated with my hub, at all. I'm willing to bet a few programmers will see it this way.
Oct 8 2009, 5:31 am
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
They did it to me =P

Yeah, but that's because you're, well, you. You wanted to put a hentai game on BYOND and they drew the line at that. It's not the same, simply because you are one person and the DBZ rippers are many.

If everyone has to manually do this then nobody ever will. Either out of sheer laziness, lack of knowledge, or unwillingness. That's definitely not high on the list of ways to implement this feature.

That's what I've been saying; people would have to manually do it. Although you could first run a query and scan through the hub, moving all DBZ games to this single DBZ hub entry as "mods", these rippers will just recreate the hub entry and start over. It can't be won because once you ban one of them, you gotta ban them all - and that means slicing through the BYOND community with a scalpel.

Having a new completely unprovoked/unrequested feature, that was completely do-able before, will probably be half-assed and not fully supported, can't really be implemented into older games, and doesn't really add anything from the design aspect doesn't interest me much at all. Not to mention the thousand previously working things that I'm sure it will manage to break.

Oh boo-hoo-hoo. You don't like the isometric maps and you'll never use them. So what? They're useful to anyone wanting to put some perspective into their games.

Let me put it this way: Lummox JR can spend bit-by-bit, recoding parts of BYOND, implementing features such as isometric maps as he manages to understand & recode the parts that previously made this impossible.

Or he can go willy-nilly through the source, patching bugs which potentially make BYOND even more brittle as it is until he finally is forced to quit because there wasn't enough money to pay him off.

They already have staff that patrols the forums, I don't see why they won't get ones for the hub.

Because I don't think the current staff would be willing to become rip busters who go around deleting/moving hub entries of rips and continuing this until the whole BYOND Anime part of the community has left BYOND forever.

As it stands the volunteers that are there have barely enough morale to moderate the forums. I fear that turning them into Anime police is going to spiral several of them into a manic depression. Some of them are already depressed with even the quality of these forums as it is.

If you take things a little at a time, only bothering with games as they come online, I don't see why this would be a problem at all.

It's us vs. them. They're in the majority, and whomever these volunteers would be are in the minority. The volunteers might be armed with shields and batons, but a significant majority will win over the minority. See: football hooligans and what they're capable of doing to a city.

lol I said you weren't as important as Tom and you decide I'm slow in the head? Makes about as much sense as anyone else around here.

Actually you said I was a little slow in the head, and you proceeded to inform me that I don't matter anyway because Tom is so much, much more important than me and I should just shut the hell up and let the smart people like you handle things.

At least, that's what I gained from the multiple replies you posted toward me.

For the record, Tom is indeed the person in charge here and he matters to you in particular simply because he's the one that has to make the final decision. But don't think any of us are any less important; the only way issues like these can ever be resolved is by working together, not against each other.
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