Android Data wrote:
I think a better way to make this all possible is for a developer - one of us - to go and make a "base" DBZ game which everybody would love to get their hands on and rip. In any case there needs to be an incentive for people to dump these rips of theirs in some other place. They call this thing (read incentive) open sourceI suggested something similar in BYOND Animé | |
My personal theory is to stop sitting on the forums complaining about rips and going out and making games. The more quality games published, the more hidden the rips become. If BYOND can get an equal balance between ripped content and normal content, the entire problem vanishes before our eyes in a sea of fantastic games that encourage new developers.
Of course, I've only managed to successfully do part one of my plan. Part two is still pending. | |
Couldn't we just remove their ability to make hub entries? That way if they deleted their hub entry they couldn't make another one? =P.
I'd volunteer for this. Tiberath wrote: My personal theory is to stop sitting on the forums complaining about rips and going out and making games. The more quality games published, the more hidden the rips become. If BYOND can get an equal balance between ripped content and normal content, the entire problem vanishes before our eyes in a sea of fantastic games that encourage new developers. See the problem is most people don't have the programming ability to make the games any better than the rips were, not to mention most people give up with their project halfway through. | |
That's the point. BYOND can't get an equal balance between ripped content and normal content and have the entire problem vanish, simply because there are simply way too many rips. I'm just throwing numbers, but they must make up around, what, 85% of all hub entries? 90%? Dreadfully, maybe even more, I never cared to count.
A bunch of developers starting to make quality games will not offset that, even irregardless that the number of rips is also ever-growing. Therefore, that solution will not work. Besides, another issue with your theory is that if BYOND gets an equal balance between ripped content and other content, then it means the problem still persists, not that it vanished. 50% of all games being horrible games is still a pretty big problem - and obviously those 50% all being anime games, and more than just being in the same genre they are all duplicates of one another, makes the problem even worse. So yes, your personal theory is rather too optimistic. It doesn't look like this can be solved that way, but it could be using an official movement like something like what this thread suggests, or yes, cutting apart all the rips, though of course the latter may not make the overall situation much better (though it should definitely make it better). | |
Note this post is discussing the realm of possibility. Not everything that is possible will necessarily happen often - for example, even though 'Data rambled on and on that all the rippers will constantly recreate their hub entries because they were moved into a 'rip collection' of some sort (or even only suppressed from searches), it's likely that a lot of them wouldn't.
Axerob wrote: Couldn't we just remove their ability to make hub entries? That way if they deleted their hub entry they couldn't make another one? =P. It's still possible for them to simply create a new key and then make a hub entry using that. It's an extra step in the process, but it's still an easy process altogether. More so, even if you ban someone, it's still very possible for them to come back as well; a common issue in general with banning, they're often easy to bypass for people that aren't computer-illiterate (and even those might be able to pull that off when guided on it). Going even farther, even if BYOND would implement something like computer_id-based banning for the website, it'd still be pretty easily bypassable (though for games it's a pretty good solution, until (and if) someone cracks it at least). However, indeed, not everyone is capable of doing such things, and even those who are will not always do them. | |
Kaioken wrote:
Note this post is discussing the realm of possibility. Not everything that is possible will necessarily happen often - for example, even though 'Data rambled on and on that all the rippers will constantly recreate their hub entries because they were moved into a 'rip collection' of some sort (or even only suppressed from searches), it's likely that a lot of them wouldn't. I was thinking the computer ID thing, but the only way to bypass it is using another computer right? What about placing a cookie(!) in their IE Cache to ban them? | |
Axerob wrote:
I was thinking the computer ID thing, but the only way to bypass it is using another computer right? Correct (other than cracking the mechanism and fooling it). Although, you can also bypass any web-based identification by using another computer without physically using another computer. That said, if they implement a full computer_id-style check it'd have to be non web-based and run some applet of some sort client-side, which should be considerably more difficult to run through a different computer. What about placing a cookie(!) in their IE Cache to ban them? What about it? That it's incredibly easy to bypass, maybe (!). =P Of course, it could be nice to use as an extra 'noob-hindrance', something some BYOND projects already utilize, but it's not going to particularly faze anyone determined. | |
Kaioken wrote:
Axerob wrote: You have to think though, they're too lazy to make their own game, so why go through all thr trouble? :P | |
You're right, as I previously alluded to. Thing is, all you'd typically need to do at the moment to bypass a ban is to do a few quick clicks or run a single quick command to reconnect your internet connection which grants you a new IP address (or if you lack the knowledge, then disconnect or turn off your modem then reverse the process), then create a new key as you wish. So it can't really be classified as "trouble" (unless you're really extraordinarily lazy :P).
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I guarantee if BYOND gives me the ability to: delete (or move as mods) hub entries, send warning messages to owners (that pop up when they visit the byond site), ban repeat offenders (or at least prevent them from adding new hubs); that there will be no live rips on the hub within a week, and majority, if not all active ones would be dead and gone within a month.
I can understand BYOND's unwillingness to completely get rid of the rips, they need their noob army to fund Lummox and his stripper addiction. Moving them into cages should be a completely acceptable solution however, and honestly I can't see why anyone could, would, or should care about what the original moron that got ripped cares about their hub getting "mods" on it. Not that nick is even a good example, considering his hub would be one going in the pile with the rips, not getting the rips posted on it. You also seem to be fixated with this whole recreation theory, AD. Granted it will take a bit of work, but it would be quite easy to prevent this. Especially with a system I previous suggested where new hub entries have to be verified before showing in general areas. | |
Falacy wrote:
Moving them into cages should be a completely acceptable solution however, and honestly I can't see why anyone could, would, or should care about what the original moron that got ripped cares about their hub getting "mods" on it. Everything Nick said is true, and as he said many know that, so you should stop with the accusations. At the time when RaeKwon was still around, Nick was a co-owner. Later basically RaeKwon left and Nick became the owner. Nevermind the switch of hub pages. And it's also easy to identify with him not wanting the hordes of rips to be displayed on his hub page and almost shown as personally associated with him. However, even though he said he wouldn't want this either, I don't think it would be a big sacrifice to have the list of "mods" not actually on the main hub page (including as another tab) but buried* under an out-of-the-way link to the mod listing (you know, might as well officially call it rip listing in Zeta's and other anime games' case). And that listing could also have a hardcoded explanation and/or a description by the hub entry owner explaining what is needed and how the owner(s) of the hub entry isn't associated with the mods/rips and how they were simply made by making little changes to a leaked source code or what ever. Someone that's particularly opposed to them might as well point out their inferiority in that description, heh. *: Maybe there could be an option to make the mod listing a tab in the main hub entry for people that actually endorse real mods. | |
Kaioken wrote:
And it's also easy to identify with him not wanting the hordes of rips to be displayed on his hub page and almost shown as personally associated with him. As if that's somehow different than having all of the rips grouped in with all of the general hub entries? Besides being more clear which game you were ripped from, the association is still there. | |
Correct. It's just that having the rips listed on your actual hub page makes it seem like more of a personal, and perhaps even supportive association, rather than an association by stolen source code only.
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Falacy wrote:
I guarantee if BYOND gives me the ability to: delete (or move as mods) hub entries, send warning messages to owners (that pop up when they visit the byond site), ban repeat offenders (or at least prevent them from adding new hubs); that there will be no live rips on the hub within a week, and majority, if not all active ones would be dead and gone within a month. Except if such harsh measures a taken it would be the adventure game equivalent of "use SCALPEL on ANIME COMMUNITY". The result might very well be that a lot of these Anime folks will just pack their bags and leave, simply because they can't be bothered to try to learn the language. And when they leave, so do any memberships they have, would get, or would donate. Like it or not, but a lot of revenue (especially ad revenue) comes from the Anime section of the community. I can understand BYOND's unwillingness to completely get rid of the rips, they need their noob army to fund Lummox and his stripper addiction. Lummox JR is addicted to strippers? I question this; citation needed. Moving them into cages should be a completely acceptable solution however, and honestly I can't see why anyone could, would, or should care about what the original moron that got ripped cares about their hub getting "mods" on it. Perhaps that's because people like Dracon, Raekwon and Nick never intended for their games to get ripped in the first place. It's just that they hired the wrong kind of developers, and one of them leaked the source-code. These people worked hard on their games, and just because one guy leaked the source-code when he had the chance, they have to put up with having all these rips on a single hub page attributed to them? Not all want the fame and glory that goes with a source-code leak; not all want "Made a game which got leaked and ripped 8,000 times" on their resume. Not that nick is even a good example, considering his hub would be one going in the pile with the rips, not getting the rips posted on it. Actually, as far as I can remember, this Nick fellow was indeed one of the important figures in Rawkwon's redone Dragonball Zeta. I believe he was the host, and you can probably take his word for it that Raekwon gave him the rights to Dragonball Zeta (at least, his version of Zeta) before he left. Raekwon's version of Dragonball Zeta was as original as possible: original code, original icons, original staff, all but the generic "DBZ" idea was original. As such it does not belong categorized with the defacto DBZ rips. Thing is, there are many different flavors of the same brand; DBZeta has had many different versions and has been recoded in the past. Wagering a guess I think there's at least 5 independant versions of DBZ around. Are you really willing to spend the time categorizing all the different rips into these 5 groups, or do you want to insult developers that have made a DBZ game from scratch by putting them with all the others? You also seem to be fixated with this whole recreation theory, AD. Granted it will take a bit of work, but it would be quite easy to prevent this. Especially with a system I previous suggested where new hub entries have to be verified before showing in general areas. If hub entries have to be verified, every time I make a hub entry it would have to go through some kind of verification process as well. I don't like having to wait before my hub entry is approved to show up in hub searches just because a rather large group of twelve year olds are trying to recreate hub entries because they don't want to be crammed under a single entry. You of all people should understand that at least part of the Anime community will feel strongly inclined to try every means possible to recreate their hub entries. You yourself recreated the "Hentai Hill" hub entry multiple times. Think back: Why did you do that? I think if you're going to start moving or deleting hub entries, that some of these people might start to recreate, and some of those might even go as far as to start bypassing bans. Do you really want to have to deal with those people? | |
Android Data wrote:
Except if such harsh measures a taken it would be the adventure game equivalent of "use SCALPEL on ANIME COMMUNITY". The result might very well be that a lot of these Anime folks will just pack their bags and leave, simply because they can't be bothered to try to learn the language. As I pointed out in at least one other post in this topic: the anime guild has very few (if any) active rips remaining. So that anime based community shouldn't be too effected. And the games wouldn't be going anywhere, if anything it'd probably be easier for the noobs wanting to play a dbz rip to find one, and obviously it'd be easier to find anything original. If BYOND is going to boot out all anime games, they might as well just go all fan-games. Which would probably kill 99% of their most played games. And when they leave, so do any memberships they have, would get, or would donate. Like it or not, but a lot of revenue (especially ad revenue) comes from the Anime section of the community. Which is why this new "mod" idea should make the world a happy place. Lummox JR is addicted to strippers? I question this; citation needed. Heck if I know. I figure he has to be spending the money on something =P Not all want the fame and glory that goes with a source-code leak; not all want "Made a game which got leaked and ripped 8,000 times" on their resume. They already have it, there's not much that can be done now, its already on their resume. And if you willingly hand out your source to multiple team members, and one of them decides to distribute it, how is that any less legit than the way nick supposedly got Zeta? If hub entries have to be verified, every time I make a hub entry it would have to go through some kind of verification process as well. I don't like having to wait before my hub entry is approved to show up in hub searches just because a rather large group of twelve year olds are trying to recreate hub entries because they don't want to be crammed under a single entry. Its not exactly a 200 question survey you'd have to fill out. Or anything extra at all from the creator's standpoint really. You'd create a hub, it'd be added to a list of hub entries visible to the verification "team" (should send them an email and/or pager alert), they would then look it over (probably only when hosted unless it had host files), and they would either approve it or kick you in the face. If the name (and possibly descriptors) of a hub entry were changed it should be added to a separate list for re-review, but that shouldn't directly effect its verification status. You'd still be able to direct link people to your hub entry, and I see no reason why it would take more than 24 hours at the absolute most to be reviewed. There really aren't that many new hub entries being added as far as I can tell, so this really shouldn't be a difficult process at all; if the systems were implemented properly. It could probably be fully handled by a single person. And it could also be used to stick (at least new) hubs on the appropriate parent hub. | |
  I'd also say the Play Now! and Browse! links should be changed to actually look like some sort of link. Preferably as some sort of graphical button, but whatever floats their goats. There could also be a new icon/search type added. If a game has a 'mod source' download available. A little wrench over a gear or something. | |
Falacy wrote:
Not all want the fame and glory that goes with a source-code leak; not all want "Made a game which got leaked and ripped 8,000 times" on their resume. There is a massive difference between a game getting passed on to someone who worked with the game for 7 years and someone working on the game getting their panties in a bunch because they aren't getting their way and turning around and handing out the entire source to anyone who wants it. Any other real world situation the second it was handed out law suits would be flying so fast the poor sap who leaked the source wouldn't know what hit him. | |
Nick231 wrote:
Falacy wrote: Stop letting Falacy bother you. He is trying to piss you off, forget about it. | |
I think this whole thread is moot anyway. There's only two options to the rip issue we've so far seen:
1) Dump them all into a single repository.
2) Delete them all.
Unfortunately, thanks to a thing known as "guild standards", BYOND Anime can't go and accept all of these rips in.
Deleting the rips isn't going to help since they're just going to be recreated anyway. Forcibly moving them to another location isn't going to help either.
It isn't even feasible to suppress all the rips from hub searches, since they'll just recreate to get that back as well.
I think a better way to make this all possible is for a developer - one of us - to go and make a "base" DBZ game which everybody would love to get their hands on and rip.
Then perform the whole "single hub with mods" idea. It'll give the people a much better reason for signing up on this single hub entry, and the ones that don't can be shunned and suppressed with good reason.
Eventually, all the DBZ rips would have been turned into one of these mods simply because newer features (like interfaces and perhaps even isometry) can be used to make this base.
In any case there needs to be an incentive for people to dump these rips of theirs in some other place. People are just going to make hub entries because they want their game to have their own little space on BYOND. Does anyone know of a way to get people to link these hub entries to a single place? Then we can get rid of them in hub searches with one good query (and then permanently hard-code it in the source-code of the website).