So, since everybody's been all foolishly excited about iso mode (instead of listening to me), I figured I'd come and crush all your hopes and dreams.
Changing to iso mode is easy enough. You just set world.map_format=ISOMETRIC_MAP - It automatically converts the map and map editor when you compile.
This is what happens if you attempt to convert any existing project into it:
Normal/Top Down/Original View
Iso View
Attempting to play that
You can sort of see my head in that last shot... It also seems to jump you around between layers as you move - randomly popping out more of my head as I slide along.
You can also see it cuts off the top half of the map, which would be easy enough to fix with a custom .view I suppose.
As you can see in that 2nd screen shot, any large (png) formatted images are practically useless (the 2 things surrounded by red)
Best I can tell, It simply takes a diamond shaped cutout from the bottom half of your icon - and throws them on the map in a / pattern.
There also seems to be no additions to the icon editor to handle building isometric icons, besides a button to "create isometric tile"; which gives you an icon with that diamond shape in it I was just talking about.
Though there is at least one other nice, unrelated, addition to the icon editor.
Movement controls are about as expected - Up/Down/Left/Right correspond to NE/SW/NE/NW
The map editor also seems to have taken a hit to both performance and functionality in this update - at least on larger maps (ie: 400x400).
ID:132795
 Oct 15 2009, 4:46 pm (Edited on Oct 15 2009, 4:52 pm)
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Calus CoRPS wrote:
You obviously miss the point of having to make your own isometric graphics. You don't add a bit of code to your project and expect to be finished. No. But in direct response to only that comment: I would expect the icon editor to have been completely revamped to handle the design of isometric icons. | |
I'm not sure if you are just using your top-down graphics here or what, but the editor doesn't convert those for you.
This release is in beta, and some of the issues you've posed have already been taken care of in the next version. Once our private beta testers have approved this to our satisfaction, we'll release to the public, at which point we'll look into any remaining issues. | |
So your complaint is that BYOND is unable to magically convert 2-D images between different perspectives?
I bet you are just incensed that Taco Bell won't make Unicorn Burgers. | |
Falacy wrote:
Calus CoRPS wrote: May I ask, what else do you expect it to do? I find that the diamond it provides is essentially good enough. You can easily build walls, doors, and such from the graphic. | |
Falacy wrote:
Calus CoRPS wrote: As a random piece of nostalgic trivia: just giving you a box on the bottom is precisely the same thing that Sim City 2000 did. Here's a picture. Edit: Whoops, clicked copy image instead of copy link location and got the thumbnail by accident | |
Falacy wrote:
Complaining about software updates before they are released again... You just can't stop being an ass, can you? The new update allows for games to be made in isometric, not convert top-down to isometric. Did you really expect for Dream Maker to take your icons and shift them forty-five degrees along a non-existent, pseudo three-dimensional axis? Really? I have seen you say stupid things on this forum plenty of times before, but "Wow!" Did anybody make you to download the yet unreleased, beta version of BYOND? Did Tom or LummoxJR come to you and tell you that you need to use isometrics in you games? Has somebody held you at gunpoint and forced you to try and covert a game that uses top-down view to a that of an isometric view by only typing in two lines of code? I didn't think so. Shut the heck up and sit back down in your crib before you hurt yourself. PS: I like the new isometric abilities. I also noticed that some updates have been made to the icon editor, for the better. Mainly, the number of frames visible at an given time. Thank you. | |
Tom wrote:
I'm not sure if you are just using your top-down graphics here or what, but the editor doesn't convert those for you. Not exactly. The point is this is completely non-backward-compatible. (meaning you're not updating old games to it). And that with the new (or more like the already existent tools) designing for it is even less than what I was expecting. Garthor went ahead and posted a screen shot from the sims, which I think he was attempting to use to further his side, but I'd say it better visualizes mine. Chopping down an icon to some preset shape/size is completely undesirable. If you're going to do that you could at least force the icon editor into that shape/size. Garthor wrote: So your complaint is that BYOND is unable to magically convert 2-D images between different perspectives? Even with the map looking like complete crap (somewhat acceptable) you can't even feasibly walk around on it anymore (visually)? And the icon editor offers no new support for these types of games? I bet you are just incensed that Taco Bell won't make Unicorn Burgers. Ah unicorn, the tastiest of all mythical horse-like animals. Calus CoRPS wrote: May I ask, what else do you expect it to do? I find that the diamond it provides is essentially good enough. You can easily build walls, doors, and such from the graphic. Read my below response to Garthor: Garthor wrote: As a random piece of nostalgic trivia: just giving you a box on the bottom is precisely the same thing that Sim City 2000 did. Here's a picture. lol, that screen shot is tiny, but it seems like it'd be much more what I'd expect from the "new" icon editor. A mode that allows you to edit icons that will show as they do in the icon file - not be cut off into some mini-diamond shape. Will it even be possible to use png images? Or will they just end up confuddled like in the shot I posted - faily. Hiro the Dragon King wrote: You just can't stop being an ass, can you? Nor can you apparently. The new update allows for games to be made in isometric, not convert top-down to isometric. Did you really expect for Dream Maker to take your icons and shift them forty-five degrees along a non-existent, pseudo three-dimensional axis? Really? I have seen you say stupid things on this forum plenty of times before, but "Wow!" It doesn't "shift" them at all, it simply displays a certain portion of the icon at a time. Did anybody make you to download the yet unreleased, beta version of BYOND? Yes to all of the above. ...I also noticed that some updates have been made to the icon editor, for the better. Mainly, the number of frames visible at an given time. Thank you. As I already mentioned. | |
Are icons going to go to their diagonal state if they have one? I think it'd be stupid to just "turn" an icon when it actually has a diagonal state. No game would ever be able to look good graphically in any way otherwise.
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Top-down and isometric are inherently incomparable. You cannot convert between the two. I posted the wrong image the first time, the full-sized one can be found here. What you should take from that is that the editor is just a box with a diamond at the bottom.
The reason why your game looked like crap is because you were using data in the wrong format. It is equivalent to replacing 3d meshes with a 2d bitmap. | |
You're doing it wrong.
I think your whole misunderstanding comes from thinking BYOND would magically redraw your tiles and sprites as isometric ones. That's pretty insane, but here's an example of what an isometric game on BYOND looks like when it actually uses isometric graphics.  That also shows off another new feature, larger icons. That white section in the bottom is a screenshot of DreamMaker. You're given everything you need to draw isometric sprites and tiles. | |
What I'm trying to understand is how you expected non-isometric graphics to magically work with an isometric engine. It blows my mind how you can complain about this.
If you don't like it, don't use it. | |
Falacy wrote:
Not exactly. The point is this is completely non-backward-compatible. (meaning you're not updating old games to it). Old games stay the same as they were. This is the very definition of backwards compatibility. So this point is empty from the get go. And that with the new (or more like the already existent tools) designing for it is even less than what I was expecting. Even with the map looking like complete crap (somewhat acceptable) you can't even feasibly walk around on it anymore (visually)? Well, I never would have guess that! Who would have thought using graphics that weren't designed for an isometric view would no longer function properly when places in an entirely new map setting! And the icon editor offers no new support for these types of games? Improvements to the icon editor have made it considerably easier to work in Dream Maker. One icon artist I know, who loves to make isometric graphics, has said he no longer needs to use MS Paint for this. I'll trust his word over yours. lol, that screen shot is tiny, but it seems like it'd be much more what I'd expect from the "new" icon editor. You are aware that you have to make the icons into that diamond shape, right? Will it even be possible to use png images? Or will they just end up confuddled like in the shot I posted - faily. If they're made in that diamond shape, than sure! Let me go ahead and show you how the development of an isometric map is supposed to work.     Notice how that looks stunningly better than what you were doing? That's because the icons used were designed for the isometric view. (You'll also note the icon size is 64x64 in those images, for anyone who didn't realise you're now able to modify the dimensions of the icon in Dream Maker.) It doesn't "shift" them at all, it simply displays a certain portion of the icon at a time. If the icons aren't designed for isometric, they wont work in isometric mode. That's how it is, and that's how it's going to be. The only icons that your magical theory of BYOND transforming for you would work is basic ground tiles. Did anybody make you to download the yet unreleased, beta version of BYOND? So the answer is no then? You took a completely new version of BYOND, without any explanation of the features, some examples of it's use and documented updates, bug fixes and re-releases and have made a post complaining about these features? I'm going to go ahead and remind you about [link]. | |
Tiberath wrote:
Well, I never would have guess that! Who would have thought using graphics that weren't designed for an isometric view would no longer function properly when places in an entirely new map setting! Its more like their layers and the portions of them being displayed than the graphics themselves. Improvements to the icon editor have made it considerably easier to work in Dream Maker. One icon artist I know, who loves to make isometric graphics, has said he no longer needs to use MS Paint for this. I'll trust his word over yours. Yes, that's great. But have they made it at all easier (or even possible) to design isometric graphics? Yay for you, you know people who think BYOND is great, boy are those hard to find around here. Not to mention if he was designing iso-graphics before the map could really handle them then that was probably more of the issue than the icon editor. You are aware that you have to make the icons into that diamond shape, right? No, you shouldn't at all have to. Trees, people, balls... you gonna have diamond shaped balls? Will it even be possible to use png images? Or will they just end up confuddled like in the shot I posted - faily. Sorry sir, but I believe you are fail If the icons aren't designed for isometric, they wont work in isometric mode. That's how it is, and that's how it's going to be. The only icons that your magical theory of BYOND transforming for you would work is basic ground tiles. So any previously designed icons (like basic humanoid sprites) will no longer work? Doesn't sound backwards compatible to me, and doesn't even make much sense; seeing as they should work fine in an iso-mode. EDIT: Also, with the solidly purple background on iso-maps, it makes it impossible to tell where the editable map area is if its smaller than the whole screen. EDIT2: After pasting a 32x icon into one sized for 64x it becomes horribly... un-editable? - and now it crashed DM | |
Falacy wrote:
Yes, that's great. But have they made it at all easier (or even possible) to easily design isometric graphics? Apparently, looking at both Crashed's and my examples. They seem to be designed rather easy. Yay for you, you know people who think BYOND is great, boy are those hard to find around here. No, I said I found someone who likes the update to the icon editor. The same guy who made the powerplant you see in my above screenshots. The one who does isometric art and doesn't have a hard time in Dream Maker doing it. No, you shouldn't at all have to. I'm not going to dignify this with an answer... Sorry sir, but I believe you are fail Perhaps you missed these? So any previously designed icons (like basic humanoid sprites) will no longer work? Doesn't sound backwards compatible to me, and doesn't even make much sense; seeing as they should work fine in an iso-mode. The fact that isometric mode isn't forced upon people, and the default view is still top down, the game doesn't change, hence, it's still working as it did in the newer version that it does in the old. Which makes the newer version work with older games. Hence: Backwards compatibility. My god man, you can't honestly expect BYOND to do every little ever little thing for you. If you want to use Isometric mode, you have to DESIGN YOUR GRAPHICS TO BE ISOMETRIC. If you don't know how to do that, let me Google that for you. | |
Falacy wrote:
No, you shouldn't at all have to. With this line of reasoning one may claim all balls should be square shaped in top-town mode. | |
Tiberath wrote:
Sorry sir, but I believe you are fail Apparently it only works if you have the world.icon_size set to the parameters of the png, which more or less eliminates the whole point of using them. My god man, you can't honestly expect BYOND to do every little ever little thing for you. If you want to use Isometric mode, you have to DESIGN YOUR GRAPHICS TO BE ISOMETRIC. If you don't know how to do that, let me Google that for you. Isometric mode isn't some godly new graphical mode (like 3D would be). It's more or less the same exact thing, simply with a graphical slant. No, its not magically changing graphics to display at these angles. And it shouldn't make it impossible to use a previous BYOND man in a slanted world - his facing should just be off center. SuperAntx wrote: With this line of reasoning one may claim all balls should be square shaped in top-town mode. Uh, that was more or less my point? He's saying everything would have to be diamond shaped to work in iso land. | |
Falacy wrote:
So any previously designed icons (like basic humanoid sprites) will no longer work? Doesn't sound backwards compatible to me, and doesn't even make much sense; seeing as they should work fine in an iso-mode. Actually, they do work:  Let me make a suggestion, wait for the public release. Perhaps there will be documents that will explain how the isometric feature will work. EDIT2: After pasting a 32x icon into one sized for 64x it becomes horribly... un-editable? - and now it crashed DM This bug has been reported. Along with what has been stated above, if you want a nearly bugless release, with for it to be released publically. | |
Falacy wrote:
Apparently it only works if you have the world.icon_size set to the parameters of the png, which more or less eliminates the whole point of using them. Explain to me how this works? The whole point of using a PNG is not its dynamic dimensions. You generally have a better reason than that. Isometric mode isn't some godly new graphical mode (like 3D would be). It's more or less the same exact thing, simply with a graphical slant. Exactly. No one is claiming that it's some godly new graphical mode. We are claiming, however, that it is providing a new perspective on things natively that were once inefficiently done in BYOND by a third party. Now, we don't have to deal with re-working the movement stuff ourselves, doing our own line of sight calculations again by ourselves, and some of the other things that accompany iso mode. My recommendation? Wait until the private testers get done with it and it's released more publicly, then throw in your two cents. | |
By the way, don't be quick to judge the private release. You obviously do not know all of the available features.