False advertisement.

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Oct 29 2010, 7:49 pm
In response to Ripiz
A rating system 1 out of 5 would be useless.
People either choose a 0 for a game they don't like, or a 5 for a game they do like.

Even a system such as ranking games "UP / DOWN" (kind of like a reddit system) wouldn't be very good either, because the games that are already popular are just going to stay popular, and the new games are just going to get buried again.

I personally think we should a few drastic changes to the website, but my ideas wouldn't be put into motion anyway, so no sense in explaining them.

The thing that is going to make-or-break BYOND in terms of getting growth in isn't the software itself, it's the website.
Installing a piece of software may be a barrier to some, but the Flash plugin should fix some of that.

I think what we need is a more centralized layout.
Everything has a rectangular look, and it just seems way too much is going on a page at the same time, especially in the Developer section, you have blog posts, Programming Help sidebar, Publishing Games sidebar, Forum Posts, Tutorials, Libraries, Skin Reference, etc.) all smashed into one page.
I don't agree with breaking all that up into separate pages, but it just seems like it's hard to get to the "good stuff" without going through all of the other stuff first.
Oct 29 2010, 7:54 pm
In response to Flame Sage
Flame Sage wrote:
I personally think we should a few drastic changes to the website, but my ideas wouldn't be put into motion anyway, so no sense in explaining them.

That's not true. We do take suggestions into account, which is why we're trying to refine the system to weed out rips (the "report a rip" feature not working at all). The main problem is people make very generalized, sweeping requests and it's just hard to form anything tangible from that.

I have probably been too stubborn about the layout as I've always liked the idea that BYOND.com looked different than every other site out there (a lot of the suggestions were to just turn it into a Kongregate clone). Perhaps we do need to tone it down to make it more friendly to mainstream audiences. Maybe this just means simplifying some of the UI elements (less "boxiness" as you mentioned) and going with a more neutral color scheme. I am open to suggestions.
Oct 29 2010, 8:26 pm
In response to Tom
Bare with me, my Paint skills aren't that great.

I think the one major problem with BYOND right now is everything's too fragmented.

Go back and look at your previous revisions of BYOND, especially around 2004.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040522224851/http:// www.byond.com/

You had everything grouped up into seperate categories.
BYOND Games, BYOND Developers, BYOND Community

I still think the forums shouldn't be as split up as they are now (Developers, Help, etc.) I Think they should all reunited under one "BYOND Forums" page.

There should be 4 categories in total: Games, Developers, Blogs, and Forums.

While I do somewhat like the idea of each category having it's own guild, it seems like players are migrating to those guilds instead of the main site area. Perhaps if we slim down the guilds abilities a bit (create the guild forums under the main BYOND Forums?) it would make more sense of a community.

I really liked the layout back in 2004. Everything was all together, you didn't have 16 different forums to navigate around (Guild forums + Developers Forums + Help Forums + etc) and the "Play Games" simply brought you to a "Games List."

I really think we should bring back the idea of Published vs Unpublished.

Only show the published games (ones that have been accepted into Guilds) on the main "Play Games" list, while keeping those not in a guild in the "Unpublished" side.

Here's a rough mockup, trust me, I'm not good at paint.
BYOND's just gotten too fragmented, we need to bring back simplicity and have a central area for each "thing."



We also need to improve the Game listing algorithm to perhaps show popular games, but then insert less popular games between them.

Perhaps instead of a ranking system, we should go off of unique computer_id's connecting to each game to determine popularity?

If nothing else Tom, we need to go with a lighter color scheme. This orange and blue is killing me. Perhaps some tan / white / light blue?
Oct 29 2010, 8:40 pm
In response to Flame Sage
Well, the good news is that we're refining the publication system to hopefully only show better games. The dilemma I'm having currently is what to do with original fangames (such as the ones listed in BYOND Anime), because honestly it would make our lives a lot easier if we could just say that a game had to be original to be listed. However, since 90% of our fanbase (and current income) is derived from fangames, this probably isn't going to happen right away. I think we can cut down on the rips quite a bit and hopefully direct some of that traffic more towards the original games. We'll also be introducing a listing of newly accepted games.

I agree with you that the current site is too fragmented. That was in part by design because as we were getting bigger we were getting too much cross-traffic from fangamers and developers. We could benefit from a more universal board system (something I was actually working on at one time). Honestly, though, I don't think this is THAT important since most of our traffic doesn't even go through the community stuff. What our site needs to do well is cater to gamers.

The proposed layout with some of the game & friend boxes is interesting. It actually is pretty similar to another project we've been working on, which is a web-based pager (that would run both from within the BYOND software and on its own in your browser). You could pop that out and get a quick view of your friends, favorite games, etc.

I'm starting to agree on the color scheme. Time for a change.
Oct 29 2010, 8:42 pm
In response to Tom
I think if you are planning a site re-design or even a "fixup" anytime soon, you should look into introducing more AJAX elements. Especially for the Pager and game lists.
Oct 29 2010, 8:44 pm
In response to Flame Sage
Flame Sage wrote:
I think if you are planning a site re-design or even a "fixup" anytime soon, you should look into introducing more AJAX elements. Especially for the Pager and game lists.

Yes, we have some AJAX currently but it isn't consistent. The web pager is very javascript-reliant, and Lummox JR has been learning JQuery to improve it (among other things).
Oct 29 2010, 9:27 pm
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Well, the good news is that we're refining the publication system to hopefully only show better games. The dilemma I'm having currently is what to do with original fangames (such as the ones listed in BYOND Anime), because honestly it would make our lives a lot easier if we could just say that a game had to be original to be listed. However, since 90% of our fanbase (and current income) is derived from fangames, this probably isn't going to happen right away. I think we can cut down on the rips quite a bit and hopefully direct some of that traffic more towards the original games. We'll also be introducing a listing of newly accepted games.

I'm tempted to say just spin off BYOND anime into it's own site since of the fangames, I'm sure anime makes up the majority of them. So it could be better to just cut them off and let it and let each grow on their own since BYOND and the BYOND Anime "crowd" are both vastly different.

There at least is a lot less obvious drama with the handful of Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, etc. games that are around, and there isn't that big black cloud of negativity that comes with the anime/rip stigma BYOND has.

It would just come down to how well exactly the "core" BYOND audience would do without it. The seriousness, and maturity of the audience would definitely go up, which would also bring in more serious developers who wouldn't normally give it a second look due to majority of the player base being here for the anime games.
Oct 29 2010, 11:36 pm
In response to Tom
I've still never seen the "Report a Rip" button anywhere. Is it only for Members? Someone mentioned it only appears on unpublished games but I still can't find it.
Oct 30 2010, 5:54 am (Edited on Oct 30 2010, 6:13 am)
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
That's not true. We do take suggestions into account, which is why we're trying to refine the system to weed out rips (the "report a rip" feature not working at all). The main problem is people make very generalized, sweeping requests and it's just hard to form anything tangible from that.

I have given you countless suggestions over the years, with exact details on why the current systems suck, and exactly what changes should be made to improve them. I have been ignored almost every time, the report a rip issue being on that very list. I guarantee BYOND would be better off (and more profitable) in practically every way if you would listen to me for 10 minutes.

I have probably been too stubborn about the layout as I've always liked the idea that BYOND.com looked different than every other site out there (a lot of the suggestions were to just turn it into a Kongregate clone). Perhaps we do need to tone it down to make it more friendly to mainstream audiences.

Does this sound like a common sense fail now that you're saying(typing?) it out loud? Or are you still too stubborn to realize what you yourself just stated.

However, since 90% of our fanbase (and current income) is derived from fangames, this probably isn't going to happen right away.

Dividing the games into 2 completely separate categories, original and fan-based, could be a viable option. Same as leaving all fan games in the unpublished section. However, this will probably cause the same problem it did before; everybody will just ignore the published/original sections (because, honestly, there won't be any games there worth playing) and just browse the unpublished/fan-game lists. That's how it was when I started on BYOND.
It may just be better off to have unpublished/fan-game hubs completely unsearchable - but still available through direct linking.

Honestly, though, I don't think this is THAT important since most of our traffic doesn't even go through the community stuff. What our site needs to do well is cater to gamers.

Though I agree with the catering to gamers part, its quite possible that the reason nobody bothers with the community sections is because they're so poorly set up/managed and difficult/confusing to access. The layout of forums, for example, could be improved in almost every way. And the few advantages that the forums do provide, like highlighting new posts, don't even apply to other relevant places, like the tracker.
Removing the pager from games, and then making it members only, started the downfall of any united community around BYOND. The guilds killed anything that was left.

I agree with you that the current site is too fragmented. That was in part by design because as we were getting bigger we were getting too much cross-traffic from fangamers and developers. We could benefit from a more universal board system (something I was actually working on at one time).
I'm starting to agree on the color scheme. Time for a change.

Should I start passing all my ideas through Flame Sage? Since he just stated things that I (and others) have been telling you for years, and suddenly it was an epiphany for you?
Oct 30 2010, 6:55 am
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
I have probably been too stubborn about the layout as I've always liked the idea that BYOND.com looked different than every other site out there (a lot of the suggestions were to just turn it into a Kongregate clone). Perhaps we do need to tone it down to make it more friendly to mainstream audiences. Maybe this just means simplifying some of the UI elements (less "boxiness" as you mentioned) and going with a more neutral color scheme. I am open to suggestions.

Am I the only one that likes the general layout of the site? I have always loved the color scheme and the fact that it wasn't like every other site. It does have some problems, sure, but nothing too drastic that it needs to be recolored and redesigned. Here are some of the things that I noticed:

The front page is great but falls a little short. As mentioned before, "Play" should take you to the games listing and the install should be more prevalent on the front page. Either way, there really should be a way to just browse the site from the front page, other than the top bar because, while the top bar is nice, it is unfamiliar to visitors.

I also believe that http://www.byond.com/games needs to be organized like it used to, way back when, with the games split into the sections based on guilds without actually having to visit the guild page, and with a sixth section for "other" games or other guilds, and the option to sift through all of them.

I know that you are all working on the search but it really needs a bit. More ways to sort. Showing only games from a certain guild would be a nice addition. By date added, oldest to newest, newest to oldest. By most actual plays or downloads, by week, day, month, the same that the owner of a game can view under the game's stats. Those are just to name a few.

Under the games listings, in [5 games, 57 players], "games" should be changed to "servers" and both "servers" and "players" should both be capitalized.

The Resources section should be split the same way games are, with categories for "Libraries", "Demonstrations", and "Resources", and "Other".

More of a quirk, but the "Bug Reports" forum should be retitled on just the index page if possible, to read "Bug Reports [Archived]".

As far as the rip situation goes, it would also be nice if a team of appointed moderators could be assembled to play through a bunch of the anime games to determine rips and act accordingly. As far as it stands, we have the "Report A Rip" button that apparently gets no use. If we had a group of people just go through a load of games at once, we would have a a general consensus on the determination of a rip. I would gladly join said raid, as I know others would. Obviously, this would require a little more planing and structure that "let's do a raid", but the idea is there and it really should be done.

I guess I'll add more as I think about them, but this is my opinion here.
Oct 30 2010, 7:18 am (Edited on Oct 30 2010, 7:24 am)
In response to Hiro the Dragon King
Hiro the Dragon King wrote:
As far as the rip situation goes, it would also be nice if a team of appointed moderators could be assembled to play through a bunch of the anime games to determine rips and act accordingly.

That would be a never ending waste of time at this point. There are thousands of games to go through, and new ones being added every day. My proposed solution of removing new hubs from non-members would most likely solve the problem entirely. Seriously, the years of discussion need to stop, and something actually needs to be done about it. My suggestion should take literally 2 minutes to implement.
Its either that, or provide full support of rips (which is the current path being taken). Just start officially distributing sources for completeness.
Oct 30 2010, 7:25 am
In response to Falacy
No one would prevent me or someone else from creating hub for non-members.

Quote from main page: "Making your own multiplayer games with BYOND is free.". Your suggestion will remove free status.
You might say "Tools are still free, you can create game for free", that's somewhat true, but what's the point making something, if I can't make hub for anyone to see it?
Oct 30 2010, 7:28 am (Edited on Oct 30 2010, 7:33 am)
In response to Ripiz
Ripiz wrote:
No one would prevent me or someone else from creating hub for non-members.

Are you saying you would willingly spam the hub with rips? It would be much simpler to ban a single user who is spam posting rips, than to attempt deleting thousands of hub entries on thousands of different accounts. If such an action would even be desirable/necessary in the first place.

Quote from main page: "Making your own multiplayer games with BYOND is free.". Your suggestion will remove free status.

That statement would still be entirely true

but what's the point making something, if I can't make hub for anyone to see it?

You can advertise elsewhere, but if the game was good you should have no problem getting a hub for it. You obviously haven't read this thread, so do that before wasting any more of my time.
Oct 30 2010, 7:34 am
In response to Falacy
Your idea would not work. Removing new hubs from non-members may stifle new rips but it would stifle legitimate works as well. Not to mention, it doesn't solve the problem of all the rips that already have hubs and you can't remove already existent hubs from non-members for obvious reasons.

Making developers have to pay to put works on the hub would seriously defeat the entire purpose of BYOND as a whole. I don't have the money for a new membership and I won't be able to spare it for quite a while. Taking away the ability to make a new hub without a membership would seriously turn me off to BYOND. That's not to say I'd stop using it, but I would seriously be pissed off.
Oct 30 2010, 7:34 am
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
> A. Are you saying you would willingly spam the hub with rips?
B. It would be much simpler to ban a single user who is spam posting rips.
Yes I would. If it claims to be free, it must be free. Not like those MMORPG games: You can play for free and spend week to find 1 equipment piece, or pay $10 to get 500% EXP boost + free equipment for rest of your life. If you call such game free then I guess it's time to loose hope in humanity.

> So do that before wasting any more of my time.
It seems everyone waste your time, maybe it's actually otherwise?
Oct 30 2010, 7:34 am (Edited on Oct 30 2010, 7:39 am)
In response to Ripiz
That's just stupid thinking. Again, you don't need to have a hub page for people to see, know about and play your game.

It also feels extremely silly that there's a need for it to even be pointed out (not to mention more than once), since having a page on a centralized game-listing on a specific website is not the standard of how games advertise themselves. More than 99% of the games in the universe do not have a BYOND hub page, but they still get played. Wonder how that is even possible...

Having a hub page is mere convenience and does not contribute to one's ability to make a game.
Even if BYOND wouldn't allow you to advertise your game for free on their own private server AT ALL (forums and whatnot included), it doesn't mean squat to the fact it's still allowing you to make whatever and as many games as you want, all for free.
Oct 30 2010, 7:37 am
In response to Kaioken
Maybe because they have own webpage or advertise the game?
Then why would I use free tools if I can afford domain host or advertising campaign?
Oct 30 2010, 7:38 am
In response to Hiro the Dragon King
Hiro the Dragon King wrote:
Your idea would not work. Removing new hubs from non-members may stifle new rips but it would stifle legitimate works as well. Not to mention, it doesn't solve the problem of all the rips that already have hubs and you can't remove already existent hubs from non-members for obvious reasons.

There's no reason that they couldn't. I wouldn't recommend it, but it might actually be the best thing at this point. Just wipe the entire hub and start over with actual restrictions on what can be posted. The rips on the hub don't exist for long, they are just replaced constantly, creating a steady stream of them. If new ones were stopped, they would all be gone before long.

Making developers have to pay to put works on the hub would seriously defeat the entire purpose of BYOND as a whole.

Make a good product, and it will get on the hub. Simple as that, not having this discussion again, in the same topic.


Ripiz wrote:
It seems everyone waste your time, maybe it's actually otherwise?

No, its most definitely you. I don't think I've ever once seen a competent post from you.

Maybe because they have own webpage or advertise the game?
Then why would I use free tools if I can afford domain host or advertising campaign?

Word of mouth is what sells games, especially online multiplayer ones. People inviting other people. Simple as that.
Oct 30 2010, 7:40 am
In response to Falacy
Wall of text != Competent post
Also I don't bother to reply to already replied questions, unless "spartypants" like you start jumping around.
Oct 30 2010, 7:44 am
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
Make a good product, and it will get on the hub. Simple as that, not having this discussion again, in the same topic.

Wouldn't that then defeat the purpose of Member hubs to begin with? How would such a system even work?
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